How should white people refer to other races (in UK)

[seesawteddy]

I am not being provocative, I genuinely need to know what words are offensive because I think I mess up sometimes.
I thought ‘brown people’ was okay because that’s what my Indian friends use to refer to themselves and each other, but just read on here it’s offensive, so must just be the norm for my group of mates.

Another one is ‘people of colour / PoC, it’s the term my friend from Iraq uses and he’s doing a phd to do with race equaity. But I’ve had a few funny look recently when I used it.

The problem with Asian/Midde Eastern/Pakistani etc is sometimes I don’t know what someone’s heritage is, and also I think it is rude if they are actually British citizens.

So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of ___ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?

I used to think 'half-caste' was like if you'd cast an alloy from two different metals, so it was half and half. Hence half-cast. I had no idea it referred to different social standings in India. It was only when I heard someone being interviewed on the news once I realised it was pronounced like 'paste' and not 'past' and that it shouldn't be used.

It wasn't coming from a place of maliciousness, I'd just into ever seen it written down and thought it simply meant mixed heritage and was a metaphor.

I think context is key, someone screaming P**i at someone is clearly a dickhead, someone describing another person as having brown skin because they don't know what else to use is probably not a dickhead, it's just a new area for them.

otherwise, I don't know why anyone wants/needs to know.

I used to say I was colour blind in that I didn't need to know and rarely consciously noticed unless a person's heritage meant they would have some needs that were different from my organisations's norm - halal foods, sex segregated space, female only advisors etc.

Things I would notice included skin colour, accent, dress ect. None of which are of note, as far as I am concerned, unless it impacts the servcie they require.

But have been soundly berated, on various MN threads, that, as a white person, I cannot possibily say that, it is at best virtue signalling and at worst shows ingrained racism!!!

Clients don't have a problem, I just ask, make a note of their answer and move on.

I am not really sure what MN would make of the Cooking for Young Black Men sessions I used to run. But that was the demographic identified, that was the focus of the additional signposting offered within the sessions. and we ran so very many different versions, as and when needed!

@skippy67 well then being black it's easy for you to say that but if you are mixed race like my best friend and daughter it isn't. (And no they aren't the same ethnic mixtures.)

@ScreamScreamIceCream yes, it was, I stand corrected. Just shows how confused I am.

I agree with @nutroast, I can't understand why one isn't OK but the other one apparently is though.

I've been told (by white people) that Oriental is offensive because "it's a carpet not a person". But that doesn't mean anything, you can refer to a Turkish carpet without attracting the same comment.

One thing that genuinely puzzles me is that, as discussed on a recent thread (and as common sense dictates), it's offensive to refer to all black people as African. Obviously, there's nothing inherently wrong with it as a neutral descriptor in appropriate circumstances if they have come from Africa; but, referring to a British person whose grandparents are originally from an African country as African is clearly offensive and exclusionary.

However, why then do we normally and 'officially' refer to people who are British-born, have British-born parents, maybe British-born grandparents, but whose great-grandparents were from any country in Asia as 'Asian'? Even if only one of their parental lines has any connection with Asia.

One criticism of referring to somebody as 'African' is that Africa is a huge, diverse continent - but so is Asia.

I happily to refer to people (if it's actually relevant to do so) by their preferred term or, more realistically, what we're told in popular culture is the 'correct' term, and it's nothing really to do with me, but I've never quite understood why 'black' and 'white' are the correct terms, based on an approximation of skin colour, but 'brown' is offensive; why 'Asian' is the correct term for anybody with any kind of Asian heritage but 'African' for somebody with recent African heritage is offensive.

I also don't understand why somebody with mixed/blended non-white/white parentage is by default referred to as black. Obama was always referred to as the first black president when one of his parents was black and one was white. Therefore, he was clearly the first non-white president, but why was his black heritage given automatic supremacy over his white heritage? Is it just because the genes for black skin are dominant over those for white skin - or is it seen as positive to emphasise and 'claim' the non-white element as a reaction to historic/current white privilege?

Just find it hard to understand - any explanations would be welcome.

I remember my mother telling me that I should feel sorry for a girl who was "half-caste" at my primary school. At the time I just accepted it, though never described her as like that because it seemed wrong. That was a time when expressions like n* and p* etc were widely used and not seen as wrong

"it's a carpet not a person" You'd just have to fall about laughing at that, wouldn't you?

For the people saying ‘you’ll always offend someone’ and ‘we can never get it right’ isn’t the point to have this kind of discussions? Ask particular people/social groups etc what terms they prefer? Surely there’s no definitive right answer, but a need for respectful, mutual dialogue, in light of how oppressive and damaging the use of racialised language has been in the past?(and of course continues to be!)

Yeah but you can't get a consensus within a social group. A social group comprises individuals and those individuals will have different preferences. What offends one person will be fine with another. So, how do I go about getting it right all the time?

I tend to say what they are 'black' 'mixed' 'asian' 'polynesian'.... if I really don't know I would either assume mixed or omit

At work we use mixed race or dual heritage and BAME or BME... dunno if that helps!

The OP wasn’t asking how to refer to Mrs Patel next door - she was asking for a polite collective noun for “non white” people, when discussing possible discrimination they may face.
In her example, when passing through airports or immigration control etc.
OP, I don’t think there’s an easy answer- someone is bound to be offended whatever you use.
It’s particularly difficult when you aren’t referring to a specific nationality, such as Indians, but to all people who may be discriminated against on the basis of their skin colour.
I suppose “non white” is the most accurate definer for the group you want to study, but it seems impolite to define people by a negative, as it seems exclusionary.

I actively avoid any mention of skin colour or race if at all possible. Its a minefield especially with mixed race, and the fact that people born here consider themselves British rather than Chinese, Indian etc.

I see it regularly too - the lady over there with the blue jumper and the long, straight hair, rather than attempting to describe skin or hair colour etc.

Dual heritage isn't necessarily accurate though is it?

If you are told that a faceless person on the Internet is dual heritage (as I am) then what mental image do you get of that person?

“So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of _ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?”

Why would you want to- are you professionally involved in writing surveys? Because if so- surely you have a house style?

@beela it is due to how the word was used historically in the UK so it is a derogatory term. (It has been a derogatory term since around the late 70s/early 80s.)

In South Africa there are a entire sector of the population who are coloured so there it isn't derogatory.

I've only pointed this out as you may actually come across a South African who has moved to the UK who refers to themselves as coloured because that is their heritage like I have.

It was only when I heard someone being interviewed on the news once I realised it was pronounced like 'paste' and not 'past' and that it shouldn't be used.

Not that it's especially important as we all understand that it's a very offensive term, but I always understood that it was pronounced as 'past' and not as 'paste', despite what the spelling might have suggested. Largely irrelevant, anyway, as I certainly wouldn't use it - although, without the 'half' prefix, I understand that it's still important in certain (chiefly Indian) religious communities.

" if I really don't know I would either assume mixed or omit"

"Omit" should be the default in most situations. How many times does anyone need to be described by skin colour or ethnicity?

The American term biracial really annoys me - how do you know someone isn't triracial?

I actively avoid any mention of skin colour or race if at all possible. Its a minefield especially with mixed race, and the fact that people born here consider themselves British rather than Chinese, Indian etc.

Yep! Best way to go.

brizzlemint That’s a very good point.

I'm mixed race and hate being called black ( one drop rule) or coloured ( tainted?) sometimes i get 'the dark skinned lady' which is similarly teeth itching

I've usually been in a situation whereby I can be described in another way e.g 'the person who has just taken my application form'
These kind of things would never happen to a white person because of privilege. Same as being called a 'girl' in the workplace at the age of would just not happen to a male

Do you really need to refer to peoples race/skin tone/in everyday life?

generally if you refer to a person in their without highlighting possible discriminatory characteristics its fine, but if you do and you sense offence just apologise.

(about why is black singled out from minority ethnicities)

I tend to just avoid it all together. Descriptions change all the time, what wasn’t offensive last year is now. It also depends who you are saying it to as two people from the same back ground and heritage can both prefer different discriptions.

I grew up in inner city where my friends called each other and them selves black. They were not offended. Yet when I said it in school to a teacher just in conversation I got toasted. I was only 13.

My mixed race friends also used the term half cast which is heavily frowned on now too

Could the personwho reported me have the bollocks to stand up and say why? Rather than being a snide? Nothing I said was rude/racist or anything like that.