How should white people refer to other races (in UK)

[seesawteddy]

I am not being provocative, I genuinely need to know what words are offensive because I think I mess up sometimes.
I thought ‘brown people’ was okay because that’s what my Indian friends use to refer to themselves and each other, but just read on here it’s offensive, so must just be the norm for my group of mates.

Another one is ‘people of colour / PoC, it’s the term my friend from Iraq uses and he’s doing a phd to do with race equaity. But I’ve had a few funny look recently when I used it.

The problem with Asian/Midde Eastern/Pakistani etc is sometimes I don’t know what someone’s heritage is, and also I think it is rude if they are actually British citizens.

So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of ___ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?

@Itwouldtakemuchmorethanthis and @Teddybear45 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia - such a common term it is now in wikipedia

I find it a nightmare aswell. You simply don't know what term is currently acceptable.
Is 'black' ok?

I don't like Asian either, like a pp said, I think Americans would get confused and think me meant Chinese.
The whole thing is an absolute PC minefield!!

although I don't like calling white people white but you have just called yourself white? Its so confusing

Speaking for myself, I'd be fine with that. I am blue/white fish-belly colour - Scottish who only burns, never tans and goes red and flushed easily

@ScreamScreamIceCream

Thanks for your reply - you make interesting points.

I think we all need to relax a bit on this , I lived in Asia and
Africa and the indigenous populations had all sorts of names for Caucasian s. None of us were ever offended. We are what we are and the sooner we accept that Black / colour or ethnic country of origin is not offensive the better. Pussyfooting around like this makes it an issue

This has been really insightful. I have a mixed race DD and have to admit I’m very ignorant about a lot of this stuff.

"I just don't understand why we have to select two binary 'opposites' and force people to choose one or the other; or worse, assuming that white is the default and that everybody who isn't 10th-generation white is categorised with everybody else as 'other'."

Then you aren't seeing the systemic discrimination that makes this distinction meaningful. It's as simple as that.

I personally don't like the term "brown" as it's putting a label on someone's skin colour, my son is mixed race and he is having a little trouble at school, like being told he's not allowed to play because he's brown. Now he is getting a little paranoid about his skin colour, he's not any different because he's brown. We're all human. Maybe the word "brown" can be used in different contexts, I don't know how it feels because I'm white, but it sure does hurt me to think my son is getting treated differently because of his skin colour.

In a formal sentence like that about airport experiences I'd say 'minority ethnic groups', or if you want to be more specific, Asian and/or Middle Eastern. It's not that difficult!

For the people asking why Oriental isn't ok - it is a term that historically was used to convey a lot of colonial assumptions about racial hierarchies & exoticised, negative stereotypes - eg: orientalist art. Also it's pretty meaningless as a descriptor these days, originally it was used to refer to the Middle East, now it could be understood as anywhere from there to China to Indonesia! So not particularly useful.

my son is mixed race and he is having a little trouble at school, like being told he's not allowed to play because he's brown

Please discuss this with a teacher. This cannot be allowed to go on. Perhaps the children need guidance in diversity and inclusion. I am sorry this is happening to your family.

Helpful thread this, thanks. I'm involved in some Diversity / Inclusion projects at work and while, on the surface, the function in which I work has a pretty balanced team from a numbers point of view, it's unbalanced when you look further into it. By this, I mean that in that 95% of all my BME colleagues are of Asian (Indian) heritage and there are very few people with African / Caribbean heritage. I need to keep up to date with the terms as I really don't want to say the wrong thing through ignorance when I'm trying to contribute. (I'm a 40y/o white man, for reference).

@intensiveeveline thank you for your kind words, spoke with head teacher and she told me she has spoke with kids involved. She said school has a policy on racism. But now I'm sitting hear praying it doesn't happen again. Horrible feeling.

@SparkleGem

Must be so awful for you all. Just make sure that you keep on to the head teacher if this doesn't get settled. Don't stand for it! Your little boy will then see that he does not have to suffer in silence and that if he speaks out he will be heard and supported. What has been happening is not right and it is the others who are at fault for their behaviour.

Generally, there should be no need to refer to someone's ethnicity.

For your survey though you should use BAME, or if you want it to be a useful survey (because different ethnicities will have different experiences), use Black, Mixed Race, Asian, White, Other. Depending on local make up you might want to also include Chinese who would normally be aggregated into Asian.

As a Middle Eastern, the term BaME offends me. It basically assumes 3 categories of White, Black, and Other. Other is the rest of the world... South American, East Asian, Native American, South Asian, Middle Eastern, and Pacific Islander. I really don't think it's fair to shove the rest of the world in to "other". Is it really that difficult to learn about world cultures? Also why do white people become the default culture and then you got BaME designating "Other"? That sounds like a very binary perspective and will probably be designated racist in the future imo.

BAME is useful because there already is a binary perspective. It's descriptive - we shouldn't confuse naming a problem for creating one.

@intensiveeveline thank you I think I needed to hear your words. I will keep at it if it's not resolved, I need him to know he has support within the school, as I don't want the confidence he has left shattered. It's so hard for him to see that the others involved are in the wrong as he is now questioning wither it is him that's different all because of his skin colour.

Is that why we now use BAME (Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic) rather than BME?

I understood it to be a UK acronym, reflecting the fact that we have very few Pacific Islanders, South American's living here. Obviously Aus /NZ would use other acronyms as their population make up is different and US obviously includes Latin-Americans as a distinct group.

@SparkleGem - that's so sad to hear. You sound like a great mum, getting so actively involved. My brother got bullied a bit at school for different reasons and my mum did not care which made him very isolated. Your son has a great mum in his corner

If I were you, I'd start a thread in Parenting about this specific issue. I am sure you will get lots of helpful tips and interact with parents who have been in the exact position you are now.

A binary perspective, especially when used in official data is inherently racist because it fosters the idea of "Whites" and "Non-whites". It reminds me of the American drinking fountains in the 60s. I also don't see the world in "Middle Eastern" and "Non-Middle Eastern" so I don't think this should be something included in documentation. It just feels racist, even though it may not be stated as such yet, but I think it probably will be in the future. There should not be a binary perspective when it comes to this imo, we should all be more cultured than that.

@SparkleGem

Articles like this may be helpful to you.

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/life-liberty-and-the-pursuit-insight/201311/six-ways-help-your-child-cope-racism-part-2

@intensiveeveline thank you for your kind words, I hate confrontation and arguing of any kind but I know I can't keep quiet about this, I'm hurting so bad. I know I need to stand up for him. I will do anything to get my point across now. Sorry to hear about your brother, people can be so cruel. Bullying of any sort is awful.

@intensiveeveline great! Thanks for the link, will have a look now

You can do this, @SparkleGem - I would start your own thread that you can refer to any time you need that support. I too am not confrontational. Are there other children in your son's position, do you know? Could you approach their parents so you could push for change as a group?

I don't think this should be something included in documentation.

So how do you address issues with, for example, poor educational attainment in black kids, without being able to name the issue? If there were no gaps there'd be no need to 'other', but there are so we have to name it to do something about it.