How should white people refer to other races (in UK)

[seesawteddy]

I am not being provocative, I genuinely need to know what words are offensive because I think I mess up sometimes.
I thought ‘brown people’ was okay because that’s what my Indian friends use to refer to themselves and each other, but just read on here it’s offensive, so must just be the norm for my group of mates.

Another one is ‘people of colour / PoC, it’s the term my friend from Iraq uses and he’s doing a phd to do with race equaity. But I’ve had a few funny look recently when I used it.

The problem with Asian/Midde Eastern/Pakistani etc is sometimes I don’t know what someone’s heritage is, and also I think it is rude if they are actually British citizens.

So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of ___ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?

Dr Spouse do people really do that ? Why ?

“Dr Spouse do people really do that ? Why ?”

Well, according to some on Thai thread so that they can address them properly. Apparantly you can’t do that unless you know where they were born..

Yeah, I suppose I get described as the black woman or chinese woman because I'm undefinable. But, I'm mixed race. It maybe serves the people describing me to identify me as not-white or not like them, but it's wrong. It happens so often that I've stopped caring and I'm not offended by being mistaken for something else.

Yeah, I get the "where are you really from", often. So, tiring.

hopefulhalf I think it's because people love categorising and identifying you.

Some people do it for reassurance. When I've answered (and I'm Scottish) they sometimes respond with "oh I'm glad you're not from one of those muslim countries", "oh, I'm glad you're not black because black people in my country are so....", "oh but surely you've got some of x/y/z heritage?" It's so horrible.

Obvious to you Frisson, what does "black" even mean apart from not obviously European ? As I said it means different things to different people and is ultimately a lazy way of describing someone

So when racists shout “blackies” “n*er” , you have no clue what the people they are being vile towards might look like?

I am ‘mixed-race’ but having completed a PhD in anthropology and ethnic differences, I now truly understand why the construct of race is meaningless (shame it took a PhD to understand).

What I knew as race - really means ethnicity (cultural, sociological factors) and ancestry (geographical origin, genotypic, phenotypic characteristics).

So now I’ll commonly say I’m mixed-race, and tick that box on the census... but intellectually I know that I am of mixed-ancestry.

Also, I wonder what future conversations around this will look like? Most people with high exposure to various ethnicities (i.e. those living in London) could tell I’m mixed-race black and white (you could tell by my hair and light brown skin), but my children are fairer than me... it is harder to describe second and third generations of mixed-race individuals. So terms like half/dual/bi heritage/race become obsolete.

hopefulhalf "shows a distastful lack of awareness of Britsh Colonial history)"

my parents grew up in India during partition.

tbh that is the only reason I know anything about it. I think a key factor here is the expectation that people "should" know all kinds of things. It's an unfair expectation IMHO. I'm a born and bred Londoner, love the history, read every book I can find etc, but I don't expect other Londoners to know all that, or even care.

one of the reasons I'm not keen on all these references - one of many reasons - is that people are "expected" to know certain things. It's not fair. Why should they know? I don't care if it was taught in school - you might have been bunking off or just not listening or didn't care enough to remember it. We can't all walk around with international history in our heads.

@Glassier thanks that's helpful re ethnicity vs ancestry
I've learned something this morning!

hopefulhalf

Right, so why then is "white" acceptable as a catch all term?

There would be no issue with saying "the French guy who sits near the photocopier" transposing French for black or, if you're not sure, how about dark skinned? Or Indian looking?

I live in London and can mostly just tell but it's so rare to need it.

Address them properly as in by name or title ? Gunienely baffled

why then is "white" acceptable as a catch all term?
It's no more or less acceptable than Black, it doesn't say what your national origin is but describes your race.

drspouse

Isn't that what is being discussed though?

People aren't either white or black are they? Or is it ok to describe anyone who isn't white, black?

I am not sure white is any more informative than black.

“I am not sure white is any more informative than black.”

Well it is if what we’re talking about is simply a way of telling people apart. Which is what many posters are saying.

@alltheeastereggs Thank you!
Last year I met a female at a work conference, who looked extremely similar to me. She was from the US, her mother was Russian and father Nigerian, yet we had the same colour eyes, skin, hair type. I am British, with Jamaican and British parents. So even though we look the same (phenotypic characteristics) our ethnic ancestries and nationalities are completely different!

Little there have been lots of other suggestions which are acceptable. For most BAME people in the UK, either Black or Asian is correct, or else mixed race.
Is there a specific situation you don't think has been covered.

Also, I wonder what future conversations around this will look like? Most people with high exposure to various ethnicities (i.e. those living in London) could tell I’m mixed-race black and white (you could tell by my hair and light brown skin), but my children are fairer than me... it is harder to describe second and third generations of mixed-race individuals. So terms like half/dual/bi heritage/race become obsolete

In Brazil, there are a far greater number of 3rd or more generation mixed-race individuals and it's simultaneously more complex and more simple. It's very noticeable that people care much less here. Not that racism doesn't exist (it absolutely does), but people are much less concerned about labelling themselves and others.

Usually you're just black, white, indigenous, or pardo, with pardo meaning "a mix". But that latter category covers a huuuuuge range of people here. My kids have one white parent and one mixed race (black/white) parent, but they have pale skin and wavey hair, so they look white... kind of Mediterranean-looking I guess. They put pardo on forms. If they grow up and have kids with white people, their kids could still identify as pardo. In a way it's problematic because people who are almost fully white and people who are almost fully black can still be pardo, so the diversity of this one category is massive, making it seem kind of pointless. But at the same time, it's not a big deal because people just don't think about it that hard. If you don't identify 100% as white or black, you're a mix! You're pardo.

But why the need to "tell people apart" in this particular way, which is ultimately floored. As for idiots shouting racist abuse they usually just mean "other".

flawed obvs.

“But why the need to "tell people apart" in this particular way, which is ultimately floored.“

Well yes. This is what I have been asking all thread....

drspouse

Yes, the differentiation of white people - I am just wondering why "white" is used as though we are an homogenous group with no recognition of the differences.

Why is it flawed? People's physical characteristics are a good way to tell them apart.

Little by looking at a white person you can't tell their national origin.