How should white people refer to other races (in UK)

[seesawteddy]

I am not being provocative, I genuinely need to know what words are offensive because I think I mess up sometimes.
I thought ‘brown people’ was okay because that’s what my Indian friends use to refer to themselves and each other, but just read on here it’s offensive, so must just be the norm for my group of mates.

Another one is ‘people of colour / PoC, it’s the term my friend from Iraq uses and he’s doing a phd to do with race equaity. But I’ve had a few funny look recently when I used it.

The problem with Asian/Midde Eastern/Pakistani etc is sometimes I don’t know what someone’s heritage is, and also I think it is rude if they are actually British citizens.

So if I want to say something like “What have been the experiences of ___ in UK airports?”
How would I say it?

Race- what the hell is race ? Ethnicity or cultural background is something, nationality something else again. I don't know what race is. I generally talk about my friends and colleagues as eg: Nigerian, Sri-Lankan, Pakistani. How would you have cause to talk about somebody and not know some basic facts like where they were born ? Referring to people as " black", "white" or "asian" is incredibly lazy.

If pushed eg: giving a police statement and that really is the only time I can think it would be necessary I would say something like " looked as if he was of middle eastern extraction". I think Afro-Carribean or British Born Carribean is also acceptable, but only if that is someone's background (so not from Africa).

“generally talk about my friends and colleagues as eg: Nigerian, Sri-Lankan, Pakistani.“
Do you? Why? What if they are British? As I said- I look like a stereotyped Irish woman but an actually half Sicilian. How would you talk about me?

“How would you have cause to talk about somebody and not know some basic facts like where they were born ?”
To quote “If I was born in a stable it wouldn’t make me a horse!”

How would you have cause to talk about somebody and not know some basic facts like where they were born?

Security guard in a shop being a twat.

I’d say to DH “The security guard at that shop keeps following me”.
DH replies “which one?”
Me-“the white one”.

Or
About neighbour we don’t know -
DH- “That Black guy around the corner, his name is Richard, has just invited us to his BBQ later”.
Me- “oh, that’s nice of him, don’t forget to take a bottle”.

I don’t believe posters on here can’t think of any normal day situations like that.

How would you talk about me? That stubborn woman who doesn't always listen!

I mentioned Eastern European friends earlier and, apparently in rebuttal, you gave an example of someone whose ethnic origins were Eastern European but was Welsh. Not the same, as I was talking about people who came to the UK as adults! That is why discussing social mores is interesting. That and you can't really not do so when you are stood in a deli full of foods you want to ask about.

I use BAME as a general term but would refer to individuals by name and not necessarily see their heritage as something up for discussion.

Crass conversations about where people come from are usually racist in intent unless someone said they were from a particular heritage and the conversation was around the detail.
“India? Whereabouts? I spent four months in Bengaluru a few years back”, is fine.
“What country are you from? England? No, I mean where are you really from?” Is entirely unacceptable and I’d start disciplinary proceedings against any staff who said similar.

If they are British then they are clearly not Nigerian -WTF ?
In response to B&R I'd say "Richard next door or Ruchard who drives the BMW". The security guard by the door.

In response to B&R I'd say "Richard next door or Ruchard who drives the BMW". The security guard by the door

I have no clue what different cars look like nor pay any attention to where anyone lives.
There are only two security guards, each works alone on different days.

In response I don't especially notice what " race" people are and wouldn't describe someone as "black" for eg: what if they were of dual heritage how "black" someone is depends where you are standing for example I don't think the duchess of Sussex is black. To me she does'nt have Carribean facial features, nor does she look especially African. I might guess she was Hispanic

‘Coloured’ is never acceptable.

Some people are fine with People of Colour, but it isn’t universal so I think it pays to be cautious.

I think black is fine, I also see lots of people happy to use brown as a self-descriptor but I think you have to be careful using that of someone else.

Of Asian heritage / of European heritage / Latinx, etc are all generally fine imo, as is a national description (e.g. Chinese) as long as you know the person’s nationality and aren’t just guessing.

Oriental is also very much not acceptable

There is no such thing as race when it comes to humans.

The last time there was more than one human race was when the last of the Neanderthals died.

Coloured’ is never acceptable

Depends who is saying it. In-laws living in the uk describing my child as “coloured” is not an insult because it is an actual racial identity in their culture/country.

Blanket rules for words don’t work in the real world, you have to take into account many factors.

“In response to B&R I'd say "Richard next door or Ruchard who drives the BMW". The security guard by the door

I have no clue what different cars look like nor pay any attention to where anyone lives.
There are only two security guards, each works alone on different days.”

hopefulhalf PolytheneSam

I know. Race is about as useful as "gender". But most people look at me aghast when I say that. Also the old chestnut "if you can't see race, you can't see racism" - um, hello? They think I haven't experienced any racism? Bizarre.

I made a joke about using foundation shade names earlier....actually looking at this now, it's not a bad idea. If we look at "suspect fleeing the scene" a foundation shade is much more useful than trying to guess their origins from their skin colour!

I will twist myself silly in order not to make any mention of any other nationality, skin colour, etc

Yes, me too. It seems whatever you say will
cause offence to someone even when you are trying not to.

Oriental is also very much not acceptable
Oh dear. I'd better tell my Japanese husband he's being racist to himself then when he calls himself Oriental 😂 Oh, and my friend from Tianjin. Oh, and the lovely couple we've been friends with for tears who also refer to themselves as Oriental. And the family who run our local Chinese takeaway. Guess they're all racist to themselves!

Oriental refers to objects, such as rugs, not to people. Asian is correct.

I am glad this thread was created. This has been an incredibly interesting discussion. It is also interesting to see that the academic institutions who tell us what words we should be using are obviously very, very wrong as evidenced by the people on this thread telling us what they wish to be called. I know who I'd rather listen to!

It is a minefield though and it is one that makes me nervous of saying the wrong thing. I KNOW I am not a racist and would hate to be thought of one because I thought I was saying the right thing but wasn't.

Oriental refers to objects, such as rugs, not to people. Asian is correct

So when the people themselves prefer to use the word to describe themselves, rather than the broad swathe description of 'Asian', they are wrong in their preferences? So would you then tell other people of other nationalities etc they are not allowed to call themselves certain words that they themselves prefer?

It's bizarre to avoid mention of people's physical characteristics. If someone's Black say so. Likewise Asian. If you say someone's Indian and they are in fact Bangladeshi they are unlikely to be offended, but Asian covers both.
Just don't say "the security guard who's good at sport".

People do choose a variety of non-standard terms, some offensive, to describe themselves. Doesn't mean you can be rude about them. It's like your mum - you can be rude about her but everyone else should steer clear.

I guess I just respect what people would prefer to call themselves, not what someone else demands they be called. If they want to be referred to in a certain way, how arrogant would it be to tell them "I'm not going to do that, you're wrong, so I'm just going to refer to you how I want".

I think black or indian in the way you are using it ( eg to decribe appearence rather than nationality) is almost meaningless. I now realise this is because it would be useless as a decriminator, it assumes that being non white is a distinguishing charecteristic and in my world it just isn't (I am a hospital doctor and department is at least 50% non white) Actually the only time I use skin colour as a descriptor is my mate who is a white south african, which is how I describe her. That is definately more about culture than race though.