Was I racist?

[tweetyfinch]

So I recently got into a really pointless argument with a friend of a friend. We were both drunk at the time. This was the first time I had met fof.

Anyways, we got on to the topic of me getting a recent promotion in work. He retorted that I only got this promotion because my workplace is trying to have more working class women in top jobs.

This really pissed me off so I said to him (his parents are Indian), that’s so not true; how would you feel if I said you only got your job because your corporation wanted more brown people?

(Yes I know I shouldn’t have said this but I was offended and it was jussive)

Anyways the night moved on and we were a bit frosty but ok by the end.

Fast forward 3 months later; I go to my friend’s party and get introduced to friend of friend again, and their shared friendship group. I could see two women whispering about me on the sofa but ignored it, thought they were likely wondering who I was. Later on in a chat someone quite forwardly asked me “are you quite right wing too?” er no!

The night continues and someone whispers to me that the friend of the friend was telling everyone I was a racist! WTF. So now an entire flat of professionals whom I may need to deal with in future think I’m some sort of racist.

Wht makes it worse is that my friend knew he was telling people!

I’d love the people who think it’s racist to explain why, more than just “it’s unacceptable “.

It’s also unhelpful to automatically label an ethnic minority as disadvantaged. An Indian man (or woman) from a well off family (often with staff at home to cook & clean), private school and degree educated in a professional job, is not disadvantaged compared to a working class woman/man from a sink estate with a family who struggled to feed and clothe their kids, never mind encourage education or have good connections. Who really has the power here? It just breeds resentment and more racism, as seen with the rise of the right and Brexit/Trump.

We should support more working class kids into good careers and promotions, regardless of race or sex.

Sorry edgeofheaven your post hadn't come up when I started typing!

The comment he made is bad because he actually stood by his statement. You, on the other hand, gave it back as a hypothetical (how would you feel if someone would say....) Vastly different.

I’ll reiterate - how I’d take it depends on the tone.

Agree with Henrys raise it to the man in front of others and sober. Hopefully it’s a misunderstanding.

What a twat. No you were not being racist.
I would have said "oh did he? How strange. Funny as last time we met I thought he was a sexist pig but there you go!"
I hate that type of behaviour.

“Which makes me wonder what really happened and how they ended up at the point slinging socioeconomic/racial/ethnic comments in the first place.”

Yep.

you used the wrong terminology but he was completely wrong.
i think you need to talk to him about this

Horace - why is it the wrong terminology, what would be the right term?

I'm also more interested in the use of the term jussive! I've only ever seen it as a grammatical term, like a jussive subjunctive which is basically a wish, so I presume the OP is using it here to mean something like intentional or planned. Do enlighten us, OP! Is it a regional thing?

Also it isn’t just Asian people, but also mixed race and Latino people who call themselves brown. I just love the people on this thread trying sooo hard to be progressive.

I agree. I listen to a whole heap of podcasts, all left wing, all very diverse with a whole heap of contributors and hear the term “black and brown people” all the time as a descriptor.

As with anything context is key here. She was using his skin colour as an example of why he might be in the same situation. It would have been wrong if she had called him Indian or Asian if he wasn’t and she was making an assumption. But by using his skin colour as a descriptor, it isn’t racist as far as I can tell.

Quite willing to be told I’m wrong by people who actually experience racism. I’m curious how many people here saying it is, actually are POC?

He was rude, you made a genuine point which was rude but it was required to show him his comment in reverse.
He should have realised what a dick he was to begin with.

You tell me the preferred terminology then? @shasta

I would leace it and move on, if he has twisted things it'll be your word agsinst his, br polite, no big chat.
My DD has HFA and is very specific with skin tones.
She describes tones as Brown, tanned, and peach, she gets confused about white black as she doesn't see them as skin tones. If shes chatting about the 2 Ella"s she'll say Brown ella or peach ella or vice versa.
She'd describe him as tan or a dick based on personality. 😁

There are some individuals who use the fact that they belong to one 'oppressed class' to justify being vile to other people of different 'oppressed classes'. This man sounds like one of them. A friend of mine worked in equality and diversity, and had a lot of trouble with one man, who was black, profoundly sexist, yet would not accept that his sexism was inappropriate and would complain of racism whenever he was challenged on blatant misogyny.
There's also the fact that some progressive (white, middle-class, unopressed) people like nothing better than to tear in to other people for the slightest hint of unwokeness - it's the same sort of magial thinking as those who blame victims and is a matter of 'If I shout loudly at and about this person then no one will ever think bad things about me and nothing bad will happen to me.'

Is that a joke? Would a student with brown skin be reprimanded for calling a white student “white”?

There is a distinct asymmetry in those situations though. All other things being equal, you tend to be in a more privileged position in the UK if you're white skinned than if you're black or brown skinned. I do take pp's point that there is a lot more at play here than race/ ethnicity hence "all other things being equal". It's rather like the difference between calling someone an Aussie if they're Australian and calling someone a Paki if they're from Pakistan. it all depends on the context of the word, its history, and who's using the term.

In the end, I side with Tim Minchin: only a ginger can call another ginger "ginger" is a handy rule.

Horace - I’m asking you why the terminology is wrong. It’s your statement I’m questioning as I’m interested in how you arrived at your opinion, an opinion you stated as if it is a fact.

I love how sure people are of themselves on mumsnet.

You weren't racist at all! He initiated that conversation, saying that he is brown, is no different to saying, black, white etc.

It is just opinions, no one poster has the final say

@edgeofheaven

totallywired I’m black or brown (rather not be more specific) so you’re wrong about that.

Yes but we're agreed on the fact that the term black or brown isn't offensive outright (and in many contexts is the most acceptable way to race)... it depends entirely on the context.

I was referring to the posters making out that OP was in the wrong simply because she used the term "brown". I very much doubt they are brown themselves.

Though we weren't there so can't know the tone, OP asked how he'd feel IF she queried the motivation for employing "brown people". Nowhere did she suggest this would be the right thing to do ... indeed, linking it to his own insult underlined the fact that it would be unacceptable in itself

Is even speaking about what could be considered a racist comment offensive now? Or, having delivered his own very personalised remark, did this man simply clutch at the word to discredit what might have been a valid point?

you used the wrong terminology = statement of fact

I wouldn’t use that term, it doesn’t feel quite right but I’m not sure why = opinion. Probably mine in fact, although not racist in intent or meaning. I’d have used ethnic minority, but happy to hear from people about what they prefer. Some “brown” people have said they are happy being referred to in this way, so who am I (or you) to say this is “wrong terminology”.

Given that there was a recent national controversy when this word was use by an MP, it can be accepted that it is a controversial word. The controversy is that it taken to be offensive by many people from the BME community and others.

The OP used it publicly in front of others and directed it towards someone. This episode has been relayed to others. They have judged her on the use of the word. They could well be judging the man on his comments. Their mutual friend could be unhappy with both of them.

Her best response is to own the fact she used an offensive word but did so out of ignorance. But if she really doesn’t believe that she can own that opinion too, but these people will continue to judge her.

Her mutual friend did not have to have her back on this. I wouldn’t have had her back but that doesn’t mean I condone what was said to her.

This saga is like the Labour Party’s problem with anti semitism aimed at Israel. The fact that Israel does things that are reprehensible doesn’t make anti semitism appropriate or excusable.

“Given that there was a recent national controversy when this word was use by an MP, it can be accepted that it is a controversial word” I must have missed that- who said it?

the FOF sounds like a nasty piece of work op, you could not win

Recent controversy was use of coloured.
Don't think that's the issue here, it that she alluded to possible positive discrimination hypothetically leading to him getting a job, which he has just said was the case for her. Ridiculous.