To ask what Leavers are still hoping for from Brexit

[Bearbehind]

So we’ve failed twice to actually leave the EU on the dates specified which has hopefully proved that we will never leave without a deal.

Therefore the only option is to leave with a worse deal, or just give the whole thing up as a bad idea.

What do Leavers think can be salvaged from this epic mess?

What is the advantage of joining a Pacific trade bloc, literally on the other side of the world, but turning our back on the one which at its nearest point is 20 miles away?

As the article highlights, it's more than six months old - a lot of water has flown under the bridge since then.

Trade blocks have rules, last I heard. How much voice would UK have in how the Pac trade block is run, compared to China, SK & Japan?

If (when?) we leave, it will trigger the collapse of the whole EU in less than ten years. That's what leavers are hoping for.

Did you see Junkers pissed up antics this week? He’s one reason I want to leave ..

just like all the other successful countries in the world that are outside the EU.

Which other European countries aren't in the EU or don't have a very close relationship with the EU (eg Norway/ Switzerland - most remainers would find an arrangement like theirs an acceptable compromise)?

Pretty much every developed country world is part of some regional trading arrangements with their nearest neighbiurs because that is what makes economic sense.

I didn't vote and have little interest tbh.
However, people I know voted leave (a lot) are complaining it's not happening quick enough. But I think most people feel like this as nobody likes limbo.

The couple of leave voters I’ve spoken to still can’t articulate what they want beyond “make our own laws”, “not be ruled by others” .

Do you not think that those are very major reasons, though? Every time somebody on MN starts a thread about a controlling, overbearing or dictatorial spouse, the advice is almost unanimously to LTB. If people feel that a EU behemoth is deliberately trying to deprive the UK of its own sovereignty, surely these are in fact very good reasons?

Maybe a lot of leavers are reluctant to go into detail about their own personal reasons for voting to leave because of the multitudes who will instantly point at them and shout "Racist!" without caring to actually listen any further to them.

Somebody will prove me right now by quoting my last paragraph and smugly adding "That's because their personal reasons are racist." Some of them, undoubtedly, but I still don't see why a desire for independent national sovereignty, whether realistically achievable or not, is something ridiculous to be jeered at.

Plenty of non-white people, including not a small number who were immigrants themselves, or children or grandchildren of immigrants, voted for Brexit - are they all 'racist' too?

At any rate, I don't actually understand how it can be considered automatically racist when people from one of the most racially and ethnically diverse countries in the whole world vote to sever political, law-making and economical alliances with a continent that is very much majority white. Makes no sense at all to me.

WeBuiltThisBuffet you're the first person on this thread to mention racism.

Leavers won, they were the majority they have all the power. The ball is in the leavers court. The government is working for Brexit and TM has said many times she wants to deliver Brexit.

Why are leavers acting like victims too scared to express their reasons, whatever they are, when they are the ones in the driving seat?

independent national sovereignty, whether realistically achievable or not

You ask why people jeer and then answer your own point. You want something that is not "realistically achievable" and you wonder why other people laugh at you!

Which other European countries aren't in the EU or don't have a very close relationship with the EU (eg Norway/ Switzerland - most remainers would find an arrangement like theirs an acceptable compromise)?

Pretty much every developed country world is part of some regional trading arrangements with their nearest neighbiurs because that is what makes economic sense.

I also believe that, had the option been to remain allied as trading partners on favourable terms but to retain sovereignty over our own laws been on the table, a great many leave-voters would have voted in favour of that.

This is what the people of the UK actually voted to join in the 1970s - a Common Market. Nobody has ever been given an opportunity to vote on being a part of the EU, as it now is - by its own admission, seeking ever-closer union and with the very clear implication of becoming a de facto USE.

Brexit struggles have strengthened belief in the EU project for years if not decades to come.

UK had a great reputation for high standards, probity, prudence, competence, principles, rule of law, collaboration, tolerance. All very trashed reputation now. We are in serious danger of becoming the basketcase country on edge of Europe. Since Britain, who styled themselves as 'Best' of EU' are in some kind of self-induced incompetent never-ending political spasm, what hope is there for a country like Italy or Denmark to EU-exit successfully. We've done a great job of showing how pointless, socially divisive, economically suicidal disasterous EU-exit will tend to be.

Venezuela & Zimbabwe (& Roman Empire) were once held up as shining regional exceptional model examples once, too. Look how they are now. No country is incapable of economic decline or falling apart.

UK is not "one of the most racially and ethnically diverse countries in the whole world "

I guess depends how you measure diverse. I'm guessing UK around 50%tile for diversity.

I want the UK to leave the EU. I think we will be happier and more prosperous if we are fully independent and in full control of all our affairs ... just like all the other successful countries in the world that are outside the EU.

Oh good! Another convert supporting Scotland's upcoming withdrawal from the United Kingdom. Thank you.

I think the EU makes poor decisions and I don't like the direction that Merkel and Macron are going in.

'Poor decisions' like...?

The phrase 'closer political union' was used during the 1975 referendum. We have diene this before on MN, the literature from the original referendum made it clear closer union was planned.

I also believe that, had the option been to remain allied as trading partners on favourable terms but to retain sovereignty over our own laws been on the table, a great many leave-voters would have voted in favour of that

This not now, nor has ever been a realistic option. The EU have made their position very, very clear. Voting for this is voting for unicorns.

I hope to live in a country where people feel that their concerns are listened to. Where our government focuses on tackling our domestic problems and lets businesses trade with other businesses all over the world as they wish

Being in the EU hasn’t stopped any of that happening. If the country’s not the way you want it to be it’s because of the governments that keep being elected

I am not a leave voter and have not heard any reasons why leaving the EU would be a good idea. We have isolated ourselves, made ourselves look ignorant and ridiculous and our parliament does not want us to leave which is why we are in the ridiculous situation we are now. The majority of our mps believe along with at least 48% of the rest of us that leaving will be bad for us from an economical, security and cultural point of view. They are just too afraid to turn round and say they are going to ignore the ill conceived referendum for fear of hurting their election results.

I hope the whole thing goes away along with the leave voters.

independent national sovereignty, whether realistically achievable or not

You ask why people jeer and then answer your own point. You want something that is not "realistically achievable" and you wonder why other people laugh at you!

I was trying to be objective by not assuming one way or the other. How do you know for a fact whether it is or it isn't realistically achievable? Leaving was never going to be a simple, straightforward process - surely everybody realised that? Plenty of married couples have messy, very drawn-out, acrimonious divorces - and that's only the severing of a bond between two people. Nevertheless, nobody suggests that, to avoid all of the fighting and the grief, they should just forget it and stay married regardless (even if 50% of the people involved might want exactly that).

Once all the political wrangling has been sorted, maybe years down the line, it may end terribly or it may end brilliantly. Or, more realistically, there will be aspects which some people find very advantageous and others which some people will find very disadvantageous. My personal expectation is that a deal will finally be struck so that we technically are no longer part of the EU but, in reality, find most things very little different in the long term. We will still be co-dependent on each other to a large extent, as are all major countries throughout the world.

None of us - politicians or ordinary people - can actually truly know how it will pan out until it happens as no country has ever left the EU before. However, a great many remainers seem to be seeing the inevitable disastrous initial efforts to thrash things out, assume that this means that it couldn't ever work and smugly sit back and say "we told you so".

Why ever would it be a straightforward process to leave when it's taken many thousands of people over 40 years of constant discussions, arguments, wrangling, challenges, legal battles, referenda etc. to develop the EU into what it currently is?

You ask why people jeer and then answer your own point. You want something that is not "realistically achievable" and you wonder why other people laugh at you!

Well put. I could stand on a platform of a minimum million pound a week wage, free ice-cream, and the guarantee of Eternal Life (without unpleasant exercise) - doesn't mean it's deliverable.

Brexit was a flim-flam sold by hucksters who couldn't deliver. No-one likes to admit they've been deceived. Makes people feel stupid and ashamed. It's a pride thing. It's hard to admit you've had the wool pulled over your eyes. It must be hard. But, Leavers, you were conned.

Doesn't make Leavers automatically stupid or racist (though some undoubtedly are) but you were conned. Doesn't make us Leavers smarter or more morally pure. (Though some would claim to be.) It just means we didn't fall for it.

WeBuiltThisBuffet you're the first person on this thread to mention racism.

On this thread, maybe, but it's been the constant assumption and accusation hurled willy-nilly by a large proportion of remainers: 'leave-voter = racist'.

UK is not "one of the most racially and ethnically diverse countries in the whole world "

I guess depends how you measure diverse. I'm guessing UK around 50%tile for diversity.

Maybe not the country as a whole, but the big cities definitely so. How many countries would you say are more ethnically diverse? Can you name even 20 of them?

I also believe that, had the option been to remain allied as trading partners on favourable terms but to retain sovereignty over our own laws been on the table, a great many leave-voters would have voted in favour of that

This not now, nor has ever been a realistic option. The EU have made their position very, very clear. Voting for this is voting for unicorns.

I never categorically stated that it was a realistic option - just that I believe, had it been proposed as an option, whether workable or not (and Norway and Switzerland seem to manage OK), a great many leave-voters would not have voted to leave.

I think it was foolish to give only two extreme options in the original referendum; but then I suppose it depends on what compromises the remaining EU countries would or would not have been prepared to grant us if we had voted for anything other than 'stay in with no changes at all' or 'leave completely'.

I've given up. I don't think we will be allowed to leave now.

Sovereignty seems to mean so many different things to people though.

For some it’s making trade deals on our own. That could pay off in 70 yrs or so but we have no independent trading infrastructure (lack of experienced negotiators being the most immediately obvious example).
Leaving precipitously like this is proving disastrous for our future trading prospects.

For others, it’s the ECJ.
But the UK has objected to a tiny minority of ECJ rulings. People who want to leave the EU because of the ECJ don’t seem to disagree with any of these.

I would genuinely, without judgement, like to speak to someone who is not an independently wealthy free marketeer, who can explain in detail why it’s worth throwing away the gains and mistakes we’ve learned from in the last 40 years.
Happy to discuss (respectfully ) in private if anyone wants to PM me.

I think it was foolish to give only two extreme options in the original referendum; but then I suppose it depends on what compromises the remaining EU countries would or would not have been prepared to grant us if we had voted for anything other than 'stay in with no changes at all' or 'leave completely'.

The question was stay or leave. That isn't extreme but binary. What would you have asked?

Would you like to:

[ ] Leave the EU
[ ] Slightly Leave the EU
[ ] Leave the EU only on the weekends?
[ ] Stay in the EU apart from Bank Holidays?
[ ] Stay

No, the mistake was having the fucking referendum in the first place, and two: triggering article 50 before having a clue what.... damn! I'll start again...

Amongst our many mistakes were such diverse elements as....

Brexit was a flim-flam sold by hucksters who couldn't deliver. No-one likes to admit they've been deceived. Makes people feel stupid and ashamed. It's a pride thing. It's hard to admit you've had the wool pulled over your eyes. It must be hard. But, Leavers, you were conned.

There are and were lies on both sides - it wasn't just the 'bus' thing. Many older people who were old enough to have the vote then have expressed the opinion that they were deceived by the original claims that they were simply voting to join a trading bloc and not a continental superstate.

I've read reports as well that the EU plans are for the Euro and Schengen among other intentions of closer integration, which were NOT widely broadcast in the run-up to the election and which I'm not convinced that many people in the UK are especially desperate for. Of course, these might be lies as well.

FWIW, I'm not especially bothered either way. I wasn't punching the air when the result of the referendum was announced, I just raised an eyebrow and thought "Ah, let's see how this goes, then". I feel no shame or pride; nor do I feel that I was conned.

I was offered a choice and I voted for the option which I believed would lead to the UK being ruled by the UK rather than by a committee of 28 diverse countries deciding on thousands upon thousands of legally-binding measures reaching into all facets of daily life, that would supposedly work perfectly for all 28 countries.

However, I figured that politicians do politics, so many of them have vested interests and personal/party agendas - and it's not like the UK (whichever party is in government) is ever truly run for the benefit of the majority of the ordinary people.

I just get annoyed by the amount of glee and smugness exhibited by Remainers, who so love to tell Brexiteers how clearly stupid they are and assuming that they based their entire decision on a slogan on the side of a bus and proclamations by such trusted and well-loved personalities as Farage, BoJo & JRM.

I was more bothered by the Scottish referendum, tbh. I was very much hoping that they would vote to stay in the UK; but if it had swung slightly and gone the other way, I would have been disappointed but not annoyed or hurling accusations of stupidity at them.

Before the result was announced, my thoughts were that, should a majority of Scots vote to leave the UK, they would find it painful and complicated at first, but if that was what the majority wanted, that was what they should have. I was a little confused at the apparent eagerness to get shot of the rUK in favour of independent rule but also the clamour to stay under the rule of the EU, but I would have respected their decision, regardless.

Either way, I have enough sense to realise that the vast majority of Scots don't hate the rUK-ers (and vice versa) and also that the vast majority of people in the UK and EU don't hate each other. We get on very well with all of the people who live near us in our street, but they neither have nor want any say in how we run our house; neither do we in theirs.