To ask what Leavers are still hoping for from Brexit

[Bearbehind]

So we’ve failed twice to actually leave the EU on the dates specified which has hopefully proved that we will never leave without a deal.

Therefore the only option is to leave with a worse deal, or just give the whole thing up as a bad idea.

What do Leavers think can be salvaged from this epic mess?

madroid - with respect, I don't think you know what you are talking about when it comes to the 1975 Referendum. Harold Wilson had the same problems with his party then as Cameron did, so cooked up a Referendum to shut them up. However, he was much much craftier than Cameron (for which he had a reputation) and once he called the Referendum, he ducked out of campaiging, knowing that it would become a Referendum on his Premiership - which is partly what the 2016 Referendum became i.e. to kick Cameron and Osborne in the teeth.

At the time the Daily Mail was fully supportive of the then EEC, so the vote to stay in was very positive.

Despite your reassurances @madroid I would rather look at the facts and the war generation supported this:

But whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government’s purpose derives, above all, from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can and indeed must — play our full part in it.” Prime Minister Harold Wilson, 2 May 1967. Source: Hansard

I paraphrased when I said "ever closer political union" but I think the above quote makes it clear.

This was the Prime Minster in 1967 - I don't think it could be clearer this is more than an economic union.

In the 1960s and 1970s many electors actually read the information given to them and were not reliant on sound bites.

Also just in case you think they only got the message from one side:

The community which we are joining is far more than a common market. It is a community in the true sense of that term. It is concerned not only with the establishment of free trade, economic and monetary union and other major economic issues, important though these are  but also as the Paris Summit Meeting has demonstrated, with social issues which affect us all  environmental questions, working conditions in industry, consumer protection, aid to development areas and vocational training.” Source: Illustrated London News. Prime Minister Edward Heath, December 1972

Again - could this be any clearer.

I have used both these quotes before on MN they are very easy to find. This does not take a lot of research.

madroid it can also be argued that the supremacy of European law over national law was established prior to the UK joining in 1973.

Lidl Q yesterday. Blokes in front discussing Brexit, they A) seemed like Leave voters B) were saying how much they missed Thatcher and 'she would have sorted this out." So I guess they are still hoping for Mrs. T to return. Just like all the other Unicorn aspirations.

That is stretching it a bit for Thatcher. Lazarus came out of the grave, but he had only been dead a week or thereabouts.

Would that be the Thatcher who signed the Single European Act?

It's all a colossal scam of the far right to drive the country further towards their ends. Brexit is a seriously bad idea. There's a lot of people who need to wake up, and quickly.

Madroid. Have a look at a map and locate British Isles, yes, that's it just there, that little place. Have a look at Russia, China, USA, Europe. Have a think. Are you absolutely sure that our interests are best served by striking out alone?

Well it's a moot point. What's important now is that people respect each other's points of view and we find a consensus to quickly move out of the uncertainty which is already beginning to push us into economic recession. Otherwise we may as well have crashed out.

Which takes me back to my first post - we now need another referendum or a GE - it has to go back to the people. (Here in the UK, that's it the one that's the sixth biggest economy).

This is soul destroying.

I’ve long since thought that if the Daily Mail ran a headline saying ‘We’ve left the EU’ a huge proportion of Leavers would think no more of it And that appears to completely true for those posters on here who say they ‘just want to leave’ but have no idea what it means.

And the rest of the Leavers are still wishing for things which do not reflect the reality of the situation.

It’s a joke - only it’s not funny.

I agree another vote must take place but, again, the chances of maintaining a place in the ten top economies would rapidly diminish if UK detached itself from EU.

More leavers bashing, hey ho. Economically the EU is heading for a major collapse , Italys economics may be the last straw. The Euro has been a disaster. The Eu may fail altogether before many years go by. Oh yes, we can blame Brexit for that. The impasse is an example of the reason many people voted to leave. Germany and France are not playing the game as a loveys club for European togetherness, they have massive problems

madroid it is important we respect fact based points of view. I'm very much afraid I can not respect a political ideology based on faith and sound bites.

It is not moot that you were presenting a point of view that was factually incorrect and very easily researched. This reflects a lot of what passes for Brexit debate.

It does matter that facts are not respected but faith in Brexit has to be treated on an equal parr with carefully constructed arguments based on reality.

What is clear is that presenting fact based arguments has no impact whatsoever on Brexit supporters.

@Confusedbeetle where was the leaver bashing?

You say "More leavers bashing" where?

A poster made a point that was demonstrably incorrect. Other posters used evidence to clarify the point.

That is not bashing anyone, that is debate. Debate based on facts.

What is clear is that presenting fact based arguments has no impact whatsoever on Brexit supporters.

Sadly this is completely true and will never cease to amaze me.

Yabu for posting this in aibu, there is a whole section on Brexit you could have posted in.

Another Leaver trying to make this go away?

There’s whole sections for virtually every post in AIBU.

What don't you understand about people wanting to leave the EU to...leave the EU?

Why do you and others actively ignore that it is a legitimate position to simply want to be out of the EU for a many (and varied) reasons that many on here have outlined.

Why do Remainers ask the question of Leavers, then return again and again and again to their position of 'they don't know what they are talking about and they haven't given me an answer'

Do you understand that many people that voted to leave want to leave no matter what the deal and no matter what (temporary) damage that might do to the economy and no matter how confusing and complicated the process is.

As was a pointed out on another thread Brexit has become an article of Faith for the right. More worryingly it is being used by the extreme right.

Brexit is becoming so much more than membership of the EU, this belief in the primacy of opinion over fact is much beloved by extremists - on both sides.

Remain is about reclaiming our country for facts and tolerance. We are fighting back against fake news and Breitbart and the rise of the new right in Europe.

A Brexit win would help the facists (and I use the term advisedly and specifically) in France, Italy and Hungary.

We are trying to win so much more than membership of the EU now and this is due in part to the abandonment of fact based arguments.

snapcrap, lots of posters on this thread alone have offered no more than ‘I want to leave’.

That is not a legitimate position unless it is supported by reasons why.

If you want something no matter what the damage, surely you can articulate what you perceive the benefits to be?

That says it all really.

There have been reasons put forward on this thread.

There have been reasons put forward in the media, by word of mouth, at dinner parties, on the street, in the workplace.

But Remainers consistently return to 'they know not what they did' and ignore what Leavers say.

Do you not understand that?

It is entirely legitimate to say I don't want Britain to be part of the EU anymore.

I don't have to give my answers but since you asked it's to get our blue passports back again and keep out all those Johnny Foreigners.

Oh and...

I think it's a failed economic and political experiment
I think it will implode in the next 20 or so years
We didn't sign up for it, we signed up for a trade agreement, it's outrageous that we have been this entangled with no mandate from the British people
The president of the EU is unelected. UNELECTED!
I think it will be far better to have British people vote on immigration numbers and issues at each General Election
I loathe the bureaucracy and gravy train mentality

I would say it's legitimate to say "I want to Leave" and no more. I see it as them saying they are not bothered what happens. That is fine as long as they don't come complaining in the years to come 'Why don't they do something. They is you and me and those that are prepared to commit some effort and have some vision for what they want to see happen.

So e.g. when it's 'Make our own laws' - what do you want to see a law about, or alternatively, what law do you want repealed? Otherwise, you are just mouthing empty slogans - even Theresa May has found eventually that there was no more mileage in Brexit means Brexit. In the end she had to try to negotiate something.

snapcrap you definitely win Brexit bingo for that list.

The thing is, as I’ve said before, none of you are offering ways in which we can actually leave given the current circumstances.

All this toddler tantrumming that ‘I want to leave’ doesnt make it possible in practice without completely descimating the country.

And if you want people to support that, you need to offer a bit more than a list based entirely on soundbites and rhetoric.

What will ordinary people actually gain from leaving?

Lost the last bit

Given we clearly will never leave without a deal - what can be gained by leaving for a worse deal and less say than we have now?