To ask what Leavers are still hoping for from Brexit

[Bearbehind]

So we’ve failed twice to actually leave the EU on the dates specified which has hopefully proved that we will never leave without a deal.

Therefore the only option is to leave with a worse deal, or just give the whole thing up as a bad idea.

What do Leavers think can be salvaged from this epic mess?

My hope is the remainders stop throwing their rattle out of the pram

Remain lost - the rattle has gone. The ball and the rattle are firmly in the hands of leave. You won, we lost.

Remain isn't in the pram and hasn't got a rattle because we lost.

The power is in the hands of the leavers who appear to be throwing it out of the pram.

No windows remsplainer is the close relative of a mansplainer and I should know as I 'coined' the term so have a good idea what a Remsplainer is. But thanks for your input.

Maybe as Head of the School Debating Team you could come up with your own terminology? Although you might not be that creative, being just a one-sided fact machine.

Bear as I have said already I don't think anything else can be negotiated with the EU - you might be confusing me with another poster perhaps. I support the WA - that we have negotiated with the EU.

What part of "I support the WA" do you not understand?

Maybe as Head of the School Debating Team

Knock yourself out with the insults. It makes you look big and clever and everyone respects you for being the cool kid who can call other people names.

I know I am now intimated and scared because you can call me names.

Or not.

hate at 18.30 you said

The difference will be an ability to solidify support in a specific direction - quite probably with a more hardened approach to any negotiations with the EU.

What part of that is supposed to make people think you don’t believe a better deal can be negotiated?

Bear don't be mean to Hate by using fact based arguments. She is the cool kid who sneers at us hard working nerds.

Us with out facts and other such nonsense, she gets to call us names and make us feel stupid and uncool.

It's just a shame we aren't 12 cos that would really work.

You are quite right windows 😂

I just find it hysterical that this has descended to people being offended by even the word ‘fact’.

It’s a far cry from trying to dispute said facts with rational arguments isn’t it?

In the words of Stewart Lee ... “you can prove anything with facts”

She actually gets us to feel stooopid.

Only stooooopid people get bothered about facts.

Bear - because that wasn't the only thing I said in the same post and other posts was it? Just because I have the ability to think about what others may do and the results of their actions doesn't mean I support them.

windows - you would be more credible if you would bring proper critical analysis into your arguments, but as you do 'debate' you can't do that as you are 'debating' an argument from one side only.

I love a good old debate myself, the kind that you agree to disagree and walk from it with a mutual respect.

To make a really good point you have to 'see and understand' the oppositional points and come to an evidencial (yet still opinioned) conclusion.

Remsplain..I mean Remain voters, usually refer to buses, blue passports, FB, the DM, etc in order to find a counter to their argument, which is a failure of research into finding the many more credential oppositional 'facts' that are available.

It merely weakens your stance in my opinion.

@madroid "But the EU as a whole are moving towards the right..."

And we're not?

OK then hate, even if it isn’t your view, what makes you so unstanding of those who believe a better deal can be negiotated?

Why do you believe that view is valid?

That’s the crux of the issue here.

Being all pink and fluffy and accomodatiing of everyone’s views doesn’t actually make them viable options.

I love a good old debate myself, the kind that you agree to disagree and walk from it with a mutual respect

Any time you want to kick in with an actual argument I'm here.

Any time you want to stop calling people names and actually make a point I'm ready for you.

Any time you want to critique one of the facts I discuss I'm interested.

So you points about the issues raised on this thread are...

I mean Remain voters, usually refer to buses, blue passports, FB, the DM

My area of expertise is constitutional politics so if you want to tell me where I've gone wrong in relation to the EU I would be fascinated.

The UK has clear permanent opt outs on Schengen and the Euro.

I have a question - it is my understanding that if the government of the day wants us to opt in to Schengen or the Euro - they would ('simply') need to hold a public referendum on the matter? Therefore - we don't actually have a permanent opt out - is that correct?

Bear I don't know what makes me understanding of views that are different to mine - born that way is all I can suggest.

Why do I think the Hard Brexit viewpoint is valid? I think that it has the same validity as the Remain viewpoint in that both have strong and compelling reasons to be supported.

However, my own view is that we should Leave the EU, firstly by agreeing to the WA and taking it from there.

At first, I didn't like the WA at all, thought it a cop out; but after thinking it through, by the time it went through the HoC the first time I wanted it voted through because I reasoned it was the best way forward. It came down to being able to compromise in order to move on.

windows - another time maybe, I accept your challenge, but I'm distracting myself from the work I'm supposed to be doing and well, a bit knackered on a Sunday evening.

Constitutional Politics. Well that's not the UK is it? We don't actually have a written Constitution do we, it's all convention and a mish-mash of state, monarchy, people, innit?

Debate 101 - are the UK People Subjects or Citizens?

hate what advantage does the WA have over just remaining?

It’s the basis of a worse deal where we have to abide by the rules with no say in them.

What persuaded you that it isn’t actually a cop out?

Clavinova You know full well what “permanent opt out” means in the context of the EU. It means the EU can’t compel the UK.

It doesn’t mean that the UK can’t choose to opt in (subject to the UK’s constitutional requirements).

Its very simple TM has betrayed our country. She needs to stand down (or be forced out) and let a leader who believes in Brexit take charge. They can then spell out to the EU that its either the WA without a backstop or we leave without one. Parliament can moan all they want want but when it comes to any 'new' extension the PM could just refuse to sign it and we leave by default.

If we are forced to stay in the EU against the result of the referendum we will have to find everyday possible to protest. Make every election about Brexit, make every vote about Brexit, elect MPs who will obey what people have voted for, cause as many problems for the EU from within as we possibly can. Make it clear to the world that we will leave the EU, its just a matter of time.

They can then spell out to the EU that its either the WA without a backstop or we leave without on

FGS - what makes you think that is possible?

The backstop will not change and we will never leave without a deal.

That has been made abundantly clear - twice.

what advantage does the WA have over just remaining?

One of TM's red lines is to stop the free movement of EU citizens to the UK.

You really are still one of the ‘they need us more than we need them’ brigade aren’t you walking?

to stop the free movement of EU citizens to the UK

To the extent we could have restricted it anyway, so I’ll ask again for the advantages?

Clavinova You know full well what “permanent opt out” means in the context of the EU. It means the EU can’t compel the UK.
It doesn’t mean that the UK can’t choose to opt in (subject to the UK’s constitutional requirements).

Just clarifying.

To the extent we could have restricted it anyway, so I’ll ask again for the advantages?

Apparently not - how?