Why is there such a huge discrepancy between the school day/school hols and the majority of workplaces

[Lifeisbeaut]

Just returning to work after a career break and trying to work out the logistics of school pick ups, how to manage school holidays whilst minimising the children being passed from pillar to post without routine. It’s not manageable or affordable.
I wish more employers offered term time only or proper part time options. I feel like what’s the point in going back to work when I will barely see my children and I’m barely bringing much more money in. Whoever said we could have it all was lying (unless I am missing something?)

You just have to use a combination of childcare, good will of family, swap childcare with friends from school in same situation too.
Term time working isn’t feasible for the majority of businesses, if a role exists, what use is only being filled 38 weeks of the year, what if everyone finished at 3pm? Businesses are opening longer and customers / clients / service users expect moRe flexibility in terms of opening hours. In my experience it seems like it’s civil service type roles which still can offer term time contracts outside of education.
In large private firms term time working hasn't been an option for years.

You can bet if organising your day around children socially fell to the men, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The patriarchy?

X-post Miljah!

You're right miljah
We need more men to take responsibility for organising and understanding childcare.

I've thought it so many times that it's not "having it all", it's doing it all.

Just because women work etc doesn't mean that men pick up the slack/do more/do equally or we are treated equally in real terms. (this is very generally speaking. There are some amazing couples who share everything 50:50 but I wouldn't say it's the norm yet).

The main reason is that only women can be pregnant and have the baby and physically (and mentally) it tends to slow us down. Even thinking about the "right" time to have a baby, or employers thinking we're of childbearing age (whether women intend to have babies or not) can slow us down. Then after the baby arrives it tends to be the women expected to take care of the baby at least for the first few weeks or months and the pattern is set over and over again.

But then we go back to work but the pattern of the detail of childcare is set in place and so women just learn to combine and carry on rather than dumping or ignoring stuff we don't want to deal.

Also the subtle pressure in society of looking like you're "coping" with everything and how well you're "coping". People saying "you're marvellous, I don't know how you do it all" which is a compliment but also feels like a baton you can't drop as otherwise you're (presumably) "not marvellous" if you don't.

Things will only really change/become entirely equal when men can get pregnant and women can just sail on through their careers without having to consider having to take time off to have a baby/when to have a baby. But obviously, that can't happen any time soon... and so it goes on...

Actually I've found many working parents of primary school age children prefer the school holidays. You simply drop your child off at holiday club in the morning and pick them up at night and that's all you need to worry about. During term time there is homework and reading to be factored in and you have to remember the random things your child has to bring in the next day, not to mention school events where ideally a would attend.

That is why I went from a really well paid full time job in London to a school job that pays nothing locally. I just couldn’t get child care to cover what I needed. Our lifestyle changed considerably but I don’t have to worry about after school or holidays. I do wonder what I will do when I no longer need the holidays, as I have been out of an office for so long and I would like to earn more than the minimum wage. My DS is 15, has high functioning ASD and I still like to be around in the holidays even though I don’t see him much. He is either asleep or with friends but he likes to know I’m there if he needs me. I really don’t think there is an easy answer

YANBU, it ought to be illegal for jobs to be offered without the option of part time and flexible working.

For too long the "default human" has been a man with no caring responsibilities. That excludes more than half of the population. It needs to change and there's no excuse.

reindeer actually that equality you mention is the norm amongst my family and friends. I know very few relationships where the woman does everything... And the men in those relationships are viewed as being poor husband's and dad's by both men and women.

I would alter the school day so there was say:
Breakfast 7.30-8.30
Lessons 8.30-11.30
Free time/lunch 11.30-1.30
Extra curricular clubs 1.30-4.30
Homework/tea/down time 4.30-6

School holidays could be 1-2 weeks more frequently, max 1 month off in the summer.

Teachers could teach in the mornings, and then have 3-4 hours every afternoon for all their planning, preparation etc. Children who need extra support could get it in the afternoons instead of getting less teacher time.

Children would need to be in school at least 8.30-11.30, put parents could choose drop offs at 7.30 and pick ups at 1.30, 4.30 or 6pm.

I'd also extend early years provision for at least another year and not start formal schooling and until what is now Year 1 or even Year 2. We gain nothing educationally from the increasingly formal start at 4 in Reception.

So OP wants her employer to offer her term-time only work, and have all the holidays off as standard? I assume she'd also need extra days for sickness, inset, etc too?

Thank goodness nobody without younger school age children would ever want summer time, Christmas, Easter etc time off work too. Because where would we be then, right?

@TooStressyTooMessy same here. Private, all girls school, told we could have it all - family, successful career, good salary - not given any idea about the reality of juggling a demanding career with having kids. Thinking about it now, it's obvious to me but it wasn't until I had kids!

I do think many employers could offer a lot more flexibility. I'm lucky that mine have realised that staff tend to be more willing to do extra if there's flexibility there when they need it, and most people don't take the piss. If I need to leave early because of a school play or parents evening, no problem. If I'm late in due to a doctors appointment, no problem. The flexible working applies to everyone, not just those with kids. My friend leaves early once a month to get her hair done at 4pm. As long as the work is done, you've done all your hours by the end of the week, your manager has approved it and there is enough cover in the office, it's not a problem. They don't offer term time only though (yet!).

Lessons 8.30-11.30

How do you expect teachers get through all areas of the curriculum with such a short school day?

Because typically employers base the wages on 37 hours a week, 47 weeks of the year. There are part time jobs (I've always worked pt since kids until now) and there's term time only contracts, mostly in educational settings but ultimately employers need employees to be in work when they need work doing which doesn't stop because it's August! There's lots of childcare options these days, or get together with other parents and pool days off and childcare.

How do you expect teachers get through all areas of the curriculum with such a short school day?
Core subjects in the morning, wider curriculum in the afternoons.

Smoggle your plan sounds ace. As a teacher, I could teach the syllabus a lot more effectively with fewer hours per day but more days due to fewer shorter holidays. And I could return marked work the next day so students would get faster feedback.

Costanza I'm more thinking of the detail. Remembering DC's friend's parties, buying cards and presents for said parties; knowing that DD needs new socks (and buying them); knowing that DS needs a new sleeping bag for Scouts trip because the zip got broken on the old one on the last trip (and buying a new one not just remembering that DS needs a new sleeping bag. New sellotape, the cats need annual injections (again organising and taking not just knowing). This sort of minutae detail and actually making it happen not just sharing the information that it needs to happen.

I know of many men who pull weight equally with the big stuff (childcare etc) but almost none who really know and facilitate the nuts and bolts of this sort of fiddly detail.

By the way there is already a 900+ post thread on this topic!

I've been working with school age children for 8 years now, in a flexible environment with good pay and a senior position despite being part time, and I can categorically say that ime it is impossible to "have it all". You are always compromising somewhere as a parent or an employee.

Of course school holidays don't come as a shock. I knew we would have to cover the school holidays. I knew we had no family to help. I knew we would have to pay. What I didn't know, before having school age kids:

I would have a child who was utterly miserable in every childcare setting we tried.
The provision would change and not cover all the school holidays.
I would feel horrendously guilty about not being with my children when all their friends had SAHM (this has never affected my husband, which I think is a major reason for my life being impacted much more than his).
I would actually WANT to be with them in the holidays (for husband's attitude, see point above).
My 11 year old would be too young to stay in the house all day on his own, but too old for holiday clubs.

I don't know what the answer to this is - I am a manager and term time working would be a nightmare for our team. Everyone is highly skilled so couldn't be easily covered by temps etc. But it is a constant juggle and compromise.

Apologies for the lack of paragraphs - I did put them in but they seem to have gone when I hit post!

Teachers could teach in the mornings, and then have 3-4 hours every afternoon for all their planning, preparation etc. Children who need extra support could get it in the afternoons instead of getting less teacher time

Teachers planning and children need ing extra support would clash.

Children would need to be in school at least 8.30-11.30, put parents could choose drop offs at 7.30 and pick ups at 1.30, 4.30 or 6pm

Trying to imagine how the kids who are dropped off at 7.30 and picked up at 6.00.p.m, would be contained. And I do mean contained.

Hang on, this is a proposition that puts schools in the place of parents. No costing. No consideration of how it could possibly be work in terms of cost. No consideration of curriculum. Just babysitting.

One of most effective ways companies can keep parent employees is to offer term time or close to it working. Lots of professional parents will happily take a pay cut to get it. It stops very overqualified women working jobs like TA or dinner lady just to do something. A government incentive to get more companies to offer it would be really quite smart. There's no reason other employees can't be offered the same pay cut for the same amount of time off/flexibility.

Teachers planning and children need ing extra support would clash
Not sure what you mean. Extra support planned by teachers could be delivered by TAs after lessons rather than children being withdrawn during lessons.

Trying to imagine how the kids who are dropped off at 7.30 and picked up at 6.00.p.m, would be contained. And I do mean contained.
I think this is the least controversial aspect Lots of children are already dropped off at breakfast club at 7.30 and collected from afterschool club at 6 so they would be "contained" (?) in the same way.

reindeer men can (and do) do all those things.
I refuse to take on all of the mental load associated with family life. I work full time too. I don't have the mental capacity to take it all on....and why should I? DH is just as capable as I am.

If we start to slip into that role ( I'm a organiser so sometimes happens) we take stock and redress the balance.
Sometimes we have to proactively seek out equality. If men are capable of holding down jobs then they're capable of organising family life. Don't stand for anything less.