Do you think there will be a 2nd referendum?

[oweus]

Many of my friends and acquaintances seem to think so. I still think it's unlikely.

Windows again we differ on our views but that doesn’t really matter, you have your views backed up so your views are as equally valid as mine. I think it’s important to debate the situation in a logical and evidenced based way. FWIW I was undecided until the moment I but the x in the box. I could see both positions. Surely most people if they really considered the position could. I think it’s important to put forward the real reasons to leave the EU because so often the arguments fall into boring and predictable mud slinging like you say. I totally accept all arguments are rebuttable.

What would have been a fantastic outcome of this whole shit show would have been if people had really engaged in politics rather than grabbing sound bites. To have thought about going back to the primary sources critically evaluated the views in the media (on both sides). But I guess this is a sign of the times people want clear cut answers, people want stuff they just regurgitate. We are conditioned to pass the exam rather than learn about things. I mean some people can’t even be arsed to read a few pages of debate on mumsnet to see something in context, they want someone to summarise the position now!

Unfortunately I’m this modern era of diversity we are still being forced into boxes, leave/remain gay/straight, having a religion (or not), rich/poor dog lover/dog hater (specifically on mumsnet) being a mum, not being a mum etc. It’s like people can only deal with you if you fall into a predefined box they can only deal with a label. No one is really interested in true diversity it takes time and effort much easier to identify people by a label. But I digress....

What would have been a fantastic outcome of this whole shit show would have been if people had really engaged in politics rather than grabbing sound bites

Alleluia!

One of my more prosaic reasons for voting remain was I didn't think the U.K. public and politicians could cope with the complexity of Brexit. This is one of those occasions when I would have been more than happy to be proved wrong.

we want to choose our politicians by voting for the ones we like in democratic elections
When do we get to elect the Hereditary peers?
When do we get to elect the Bishops

and for that matter
When does the WTO hold elections ?

I think leave would win again. I even think 'no deal' would win, even in places like Sunderland.

Despite this still think a second referendum is a good idea, a decision of this magnitude absolutely needs a double confirmation vote.

@Starfish2020 it has made me giggle quite a few times over the last couple of years. But fuck knows what they’re going to do with the border with france😂

But the WTO are a trading organisation, they don't make our laws, sigh.Also if countries don't like WTO trading agreements they are able to make their own.

Re House of Lords, agree it is undemocratic and there is an argument for scrapping it. Just because our legislature is not perfect is not an excuse for supporting an even worse system.

But a second referendum now couldnt possibly be implemented, obviously

Windows -you see common ground can always be found😁

an even worse system

It isn't a worse system it is just different. In terms of comparative politics the EU is a democratically structured institution.

The EU Commission is a hybrid of a civil service function and an executive function. Although, as it isn't the final decision making body it can't really claim to be an executive - that is just my opinion though.

We don't elect our civil servants. The Commissioners are held to account by democratic bodies which is where they gain democratic legitimacy just like British civil servants do.

Posters look at the EU don't recognise the structure and assume it is undemocratic. The only point you raise is some elements aren't elected. I don't think there is a system in the world where every government post is elected. There are also good reasons for not electing some positions within government.

Chavvy - I always thought that about the House of Lords totally out of touch couldn’t be trusted to be representative, turns out to true of the fuckers we’ve elected too. At least the house of lord don’t have to compromise their principles for votes/promotion.

But the WTO are a trading organisation, they don't make our laws
If the UK leaves the EU with no deal, its trade will be entirely under the control of the WTO arbitration panel
for the years it takes to strike new deals
and the UKs choices will be subject to veto by 167 countries
and services will be hung out to dry

But the EU system is just as democratic as our own, even as a leaver I never really understood the undemocratic argument, again people just can’t be arsed to research it.

At least the house of lord don’t have to compromise their principles for votes/promotion

Lifeover and that is one of the key reasons for having some positions unelected. Also, if some positions in government are unelected you can selected experts in their field. As the EU is a trade organisation many consider having experts more useful than politicians who are looking at the the next election.

These experts are overseen by democratic structures though to make it democratic.

Democracy is not just about elections.

Windows, at this stage I’m thinking there would be a lot to be said for cutting the mps out the whole process. Brexit has been ruled entirely by personal career aspirations.

I hope not.

Too much of the last three years has been spent chest banging, and many Leavers have been told that what they really want is a No Deal Brexit and will vote accordingly.

I just wish they would revoke, and start spending some of the money they have wasted on this whole sorry spectacle on our public services instead.

windows - you're Remsplaining, with knobs on and tinkly bells - you probably Remspread too - given you're head must be so big to contain all your factoids it keels over and needs its own seat.

Yes. I do.

No, but I wish there would be.

@HateIsNotGood

Because what we need is less experts isn't that right?
What we need is to make decisions based on fake news and sound bites is that what you want?
Why would we need to contextualise our political system when we can shout slogans at each other?

That is the attitude that has helped us get in this mess.

I have a degree of expertise in constitutional politics, I need economics explaining to me though. I'm interested in science but I don't know so much about it so I listen to people who do know then draw conclusions.

I value experts, opinions and information and then I make my mind up. Perhaps you could try that some time.

Jolly good for you - so you are your own self-proclaimed expert - brill, a little bit ignorant of you to make assumptions on how others gain their info. As I said before, your just a remsplainer, re-explaining his/her's rem-stuff.

If you could re-explain something I may have missed from the plethora of opinion (guised as evidence) that you have already provided - do you have any specific expertise or qualification in EU Governance that might validate your claims or just

blowing out of your ass as all 'splainers' do?

We’ll never get a referendum under this Government... Enough of the Brexit ultras would vote against it in a confidence vote before that happened.

So, much as I don’t want one, I think we’ll get a GE within a few months, the outcome of which may or may not lead to a referendum.

HateIsNotGood needs to look in the mirror and say their name out loud.

Actually, based on what’s currently going on in Brussels, if France gets its way and sets a 30 June ‘drop-dead’ date, I don’t believe we’ll have a 2nd referendum....

TM will continue to toil fruitlessly for a deal over the coming weeks. Then some time in mid-June, panic will overtake Parliament who are faced with the two starkest of options, ‘no-deal’ or ‘revoke’ with no more opportunity to extend and no time for a referendum or even a GE.

The real moment of decision is ultimately upon us - the clock has struck midnight - and the remain-leaning Parliament will vote to revoke Article 50, and, after much wriggling and writhing, in her last act before her Government finally implodes utterly, TM will, as head of the Government, sign the order of revocation.

Anybody posted this yet?

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47879777?fbclid=IwAR1X2bOV4qi2Ho3LU8GP9T6ap2_Kr9BDk9Y7lzEJpIoI8g2kLJD8DRe5s1g

What do people think of the new leaving date of 31/10? Not enough time for a referendum unless prep starts now and just more months of TM trying and failing to get the deal through. Then back to where we were last night. Just feels like a never-ending nightmare. Surely it does have to go back to the people now, if not as a ref then as a general election?