Do you think there will be a 2nd referendum?

[oweus]

Many of my friends and acquaintances seem to think so. I still think it's unlikely.

Ok, so maybe there was a colour chart available but it still holds that there was no consensus at the time of voting as to what "another colour" would actually mean. It definitely didn't mean another colour = blue, but that is the position that has been assumed by many since.

And chavyoldbrexiteer I did try asking some of the 17.4 why they voted leave:
One told me she thought a recession would mean she could upgrade her house to a 4 bed, another told me she 'didn't like all those foreigners stabbing people' and the third told me 'we fought the war and should be ruling Europe not being ruled by it'. All read the Daily Mail.

Now that makes sense. All valid reasons to leave. Yep 👍

But yes it’s the QMV that really kills it for me, by the EUs own admission it was felt this move was necessary with 27 states to ensure the continued functionality of the EU legislature. It was effectively confirming that it knew the members states had different goals to each other but was going to force everyone along with the majority even if it was to the detriment of an individual state.

So ? Isn't that simply the same on a national level of what you, I and everyone else in the UK has to do when policies we oppose are introduced. Universal Credit, for example ?

Homefiresburning, I’ll take that as a can’t be arsed, really don’t read anything in context spoon feed me some sound bites then. Happy to move along from such fascinating intellectual debate. See ya!

star and what did the other 17.39999 million tell you when you carried out your 'conclusive poll'?

DGRossetti
Would you like to paint this room:A)white; or B)another colour?

Not quite a perfect analogy.The room is already white.

Yes, we know (it wasn't my analogy) - but, hey, I thought the EU needed reforming?
It could do with a fresh lick of white paint - n'est-ce pas?

Yes, we know (it wasn't my analogy) - but, hey, I thought the EU needed reforming? It could do with a fresh lick of white paint - n'est-ce pas?

It's still white ....

*“ HateIsNotGood

star and what did the other 17.39999 million tell you when you carried out your 'conclusive poll'? “*

Me?! Sorry clearly my brain is not working as am too tired and should be in bed, but what on earth are you talking about?

Starfish2020 I’ve asked some remainers why the votes remain, such nuggets as - well what happens when I go to Spain and break my leg? So we can still travel into Europe, mind you we can still go to Brittany, it’s part of England just attached to France, don’t like change (oh the irony of voting to stay in one of the most dynamic political institutions in the world to maintain the status quo) etc etc. Stupid reasons behind votes happened on both sides believe me!

HateIsNotGood again thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

The information about democracy in the EU aren't opinions they are facts.

I'm not remainsplaining anything I am presenting facts and you can make your own mind up.

Yes ChavvyOldBrexiteer the European Parliament can not propose legislation. The reasoning behind this was to control the power of the Parliament. The EU has a strict remit of what laws it can introduce and so they are proposed by the Commission. The Commission which is selected not elected in the same way the US cabinet is and our very own HoL.

It was felt if the Parliament could introduce laws then they would push the boundaries and try to expand the powers of the EU. The U.K. has always been supportive of this for obvious reasons.

Since the democratic issue has been raised has anyone had a look at Yanis Varoufakis’ book about dealing with the EU? He was the Syriza finance minister for Greece in case anyone missed him first time round. It’s called “Adults in the room”.

It's still white....

If you want to freshen up the room - you have to pay for another tin of white paint - and actually paint the room.
Perhaps we just got bored of white?

Lifeover

I probably shouldn’t laugh but couldn’t help it
Seems stupidity is not assigned to just one side.
Least it cheered me up knowing I will still be able to travel to Brittany 😂😂

I agree @Clavina. Some of the comments from Remainers have been truly offensive; jeering that Remain would now win because so many old people have died - so many abusive comments for example calling Leavers Neanderthals, thick, racist, uneducated....

Never known so much bile in my life and shocked at how some of them really despise those who have a different political opinion.

Lifeover - civil law/investigative judicial system

See I think the investigative system has a lot of good points. We are too tribal and good vs bad, black vs white in the U.K. and the US.

I think a search for the truth is more useful than a search for guilt or innocence. And the decent into tribalism on this thread shows how taking sides is not really a helpful way forward.

An investigation or an investigative judicial review of Brexit would be very useful way forward whether we decide to stay or leave.

Remain would now win because so many old people have died

Again, that is not a jeer it's a fact. Demographics indicate that more older people voted for Brexit more young people voted remain.

As the population changes so do voting patterns.

Lifeover, the examples of stupidity were a response to chavy telling people to go and 'ask an average Joe' why they voted out. Obviously average Joes on both sides are capable of stupidity. Which is why we need to put ourseleves in the hands of experts.

Always impresses me how Leavers on Mumsnet spend hours playing the experts arguing trade deals yet have no response to the details such as my point upthread about the massive threat to the NHS and pharma supplies. Argue the laws all you like but this is real and it's scary.

MEP's cannot even propose legislation, they just rubber stamp the laws of the unelected EU commission.
so exactly like
the UK civil service writing legislation to be nodded through in a matter of hours by UK MPs
and unelected Bishops and Hereditary peers

@windows, but most of us do not want our rule makers to be 'selected' by an unknown source, they rightly demand transparency - we want to choose our politicians by voting for the ones we like in democratic elections.

Politicians must be elected openly and democratically and fully accountable to the electorate; anything else is a dictatorship.

What I find weird is the constant references to the "elite" when talking about remainers. What is not elite about Nigel Farage (privately educated, made loads of money in the City), Boris Johnson (Eton educated, Oxford, journalism, politics, enamoured of bankers and the City), Jacob Rees-Mogg (Eton, Oxford, making colossal sums of money in the City) and many others? It seems to me plenty of the elite want Brexit - especially if they have connections with the City of London. Why on earth would the elite be desperate to remain? Why the inane comments about the elite not letting us leave? It's no skin off the noses of the elite one way or the other - they can profit either way and don't have to stay in the UK if Brexit turns out to be a fuck up, unlike more ordinary folk.

As for another referendum - I would welcome one. If the result is leave again, remainers are likely to accept it. If the result is remain, then that's what the people now want, so that's democratic, too. If, after the last 3 years, we get a Brexit that no-one is happy with, I fail to see what is democratic about it.

so many abusive comments for example calling Leavers Neanderthals, thick, racist, uneducated

Do I think those stereotypes apply to all Leavers? No.

Do they apply to the couple I know? Absolutely - would you like me to pretend otherwise so I don’t offend your sensibilities?

Absolutely walkaround

If the result is leave again, remainers are likely to accept it.
Yes of course they will

@ginghambox unless it's fraudulent again of course

but most of us do not want our rule makers to be 'selected' by an unknown source, they rightly demand transparency - we want to choose our politicians by voting for the ones we like in democratic elections

Can't you hear the irony?

House of Lords anyone? Members of the HoL can serve in the British cabinet.

In many democratic systems like France and the USA members of the cabinet are selected. My response was to your point that the EU is undemocratic. If the EU is undemocratic so is the U.K., France and the USA.

The source is not unknown it is quite transparent.