Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

[stillpinching]

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

tamere Sod Brexit, is your user name really about my naked mum being taken in front of me?!
What's the French for eye bleach?
The Germans would say Kopfkino aus.
Where is that phrase from - google only gave me the choice of 'or my sister on all fours in an interview'....is this French rap misogyny, Newman and Baddiel type 'your mum' humour or something cultural that I have totally missed?!

I see this thread has devolved into the usual sneering.

However, now that we actually have a deal on the table, Boris, Rees Mogg and alike keep torpedoing it, telling us that a vote for Leave was actually a vote for No Deal. A large chunk of Leave voters are lapping that up, despite it not being either (a) the question that was on the ballot, or (b) the Brexit that was promised by the Leave campaign.

It's a bit more nuanced than this, though, isn't it?

In any deal, you have to be prepared to walk away or you're not really negotiating properly, are you? Hence the no deal business. Brexiteers have always been unhappy that TM was in charge, that she showed no political leadership, that she was constantly running off to Brussels and letting Junker, Barnier et al set the agenda, disastrously setting the order of events, telling the UK what our terms for departure were.

What should have happened is that a person who actually believed in Brexit should have been in charge, they should have ensured that credible WTO plans were laid, and negotiated on our own terms in parallel i.e. this is what Britain wants; what does the EU want; where can we compromise? And FFS, have Barnier et al made even a single journey to London at this point on Brexit business? (that's a real question - I'd love to know).

Crucially, neither Norway nor Canada, the models that Cazonette seems to favour, approached the EU with a ticking clock and a mandate to get a deal at all costs.

The deal that TM has returned with is the worst deal that anyone could possibly engineer (and of course, it's not TM's deal - it's the EU's deal). We are unable to exit without the EU's permission, we are unable to strike our own trade agreements, we have to grant any new trading partners access to our own markets without the EU considering our own needs - i.e. Germany will protect its industry, France its agriculture, but what about our service industry?

And now in her infinite hubris, she's joined up with Corbyn, and worse yet, she wants to future-proof this deal, the so-called Boris Lock, so you'll need a new parliament to unlock it.

Bring on an election.

Alaskan why should anyone come over here for talks? It's us who are leaving and causing all the trouble.

The Referendum was too simplistic with the choice of leave or remain, probably because the Government was arrogant enough to think Remain would win.

No one had had the opportunity to vote on the choices for leave and we definitely need a second peoples vote.

"What should have happened is that a person who actually believed in Brexit should have been in charge,"
Davis, Raab and Johnson didn't have any role at all.

I'd think a second vote is essential. There is no agreement in Parly for a way of leaving so it needs to be back to the people, with an option to remain. We now know so much more than we did 3 years ago.

Rage Yeah it's the French version of Your mum on toast. Very mature ;-)

Willyoujust au contraire mon amie, it's allowing a corrupt result to stand that is showing contempt of democracy.

A confirmatory referendum is the 9nly democratic choice on the following grounds:

1. The original referendum promised a range of leave option soft to hard but the government chose a hard Brexit.
2. There were electoral irregularities in the leave campaigns
3. A confirmatory ref would allow voters to access specific options - remain, deal 'x'.

In short let's have an informed vote and ensure that all campaigning is within the given rules!

SciFiRules
2. There were electoral irregularities in the leave campaigns

I wouldn't mind this if it was repeatedly included that the same should be said for remain.

And what it really means is that it was run just like the normal election campaigns.

What should have happened is that a person who actually believed in Brexit should have been in charge,

Maybe someone should have stepped up then? Instead of all running away when Leave won.

bumbleymummy

What should have happened is a cross party conference that decided on what Brexit should look like and what we where negotiating for.

Its a shame that May stopped it.

BoneyBack,
The remain campaign was ineffective but I haven't seen any evidence of irregularities. However, if such is the case it further underpins the case for a confirmatory ref.

AlaskanOilBaron
What should have happened is that a person who actually believed in Brexit should have been in charge

IMO, it didn't happen because no-one thought that leave would win.

I wouldn't mind this if it was repeatedly included that the same should be said for remain.

I don’t recall anyone from the Remain campaign being referred to the NCA for criminal investigation?

A second referendum is needed to confirm the nature of our relationship with the eu in future.

We still need to trade with them!!

*What should have happened is that a person who actually believed in Brexit should have been in charge
David Davis and Boris Johnson were given those very roles.

To sort Brexit.

We don’t need a prime minister who “believes” in Brexit - it’s not a religion - the country has other shit to sort out and the Prime Minister is not a president. She is first amongst equals effectively as we have a cabinet government.

And still we have the patronising, remainer minority crying. Get a grip, we'll eventually be out of the EU as the majority voted for.

*@DelilahfromDenmark maybe all of the pricks who liked to send and plant nail bombs can maybe just not do it?

Or is that beyond the collective IQ on that side of the Irish Sea? To not be a total fucking cockwomble and murder innocent people and their children.*

This ^

IMO, it didn't happen because no-one thought that leave would win.

It's also a reflection of how out of step Parliament is with the country - it's filled with remainers and remainers who pose as brexiteers.

We don’t need a prime minister who “believes” in Brexit - it’s not a religion - the country has other shit to sort out and the Prime Minister is not a president. She is first amongst equals effectively as we have a cabinet government.

If you were Barnier, who would you rather negotiate with? Someone who had campaigned for remain, who believed in the European project, or someone who was an established Eurosceptic?

TM is surrounded by remainers e.g. Liddington, Hammond, and of course, Olly Robbins (not to mention she, herself, a remainer). They've effectively frustrated the Brexit process including WTO preparations which of course feeds directly into the continuous BBC news cycle of remainer fears e.g. medicine shortages and chaos at the ports which (alongside the magnificent remainer triumph: 'no deal' = 'crashing out').

And then everyone throws their hands up in the air and says it's too hard, it's too complicated, let's call the whole thing off.

AlaskanOilBaron

It's also a reflection of how out of step Parliament is with the country - it's filled with remainers and remainers who pose as brexiteers.

I agree as parliament seems to be city centric.

@BoneyBackJefferson

And what it really means is that it was run just like the normal election campaigns

If electoral irregularities of the nature that occurred in the referendum happened in a parliamentary election there would have been a by election.

It does happen occasionally.

SciFiRules ContinuityError

financial irregularities in the campaign and two supporting campaign groups. Both were being investigated the last time I looked.

Windowsareforcheaters

Yes they have done, but not for the usual lies, half truths and bullshit that the campaigns are full of.

Maybe if the political parties had been pulled up on the usual levels of detritus that they put forward as campaigns the referendum campaigns wouldn't have happened (in this form) and we would have seen campaigns based on truth or at least a reasonable facsimile of it

If you were Barnier, who would you rather negotiate with? Someone who had campaigned for remain, who believed in the European project, or someone who was an established Eurosceptic

What’s your point exactly? Theresa May didn’t get much involved at first.

She left it to David Davis and Boris.

Why are people conveniently forgetting this fact.

They were given first dibs at sorting this out........

They didn’t.

And it is complicated - if anyone thinks it’s simple has absolutely no clue about the EU.