Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

[stillpinching]

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

Personally I'd make it a two-tier question. 1. Remain or leave? 2. If leave, leave with May's deal or no deal?

Because most remainers still haven’t got a clue what they’re voting for and just desperately clinging to the status quo. They’ve bought the lies about “no deal as the one we have now”, they’ve totally got their heads in the sand about how this deal will inevitably change. They’ve been brain washed into thinking they have the intellectual and moral high ground by the BBC’s campaigning over the last 3 years. Maybe we could have another vote in 3years if the bbc actually had 3 years of balanced reporting on Brexit. Surely any new vote now would inevitably be greatly influenced by the supposedly politically impartial bbc and therefore if remain won (which I actually think is unlikely) any results would be questionable due to the political propaganda that has been on the national broadcaster every day for the last 3 years.

A second referendum would be May's deal (aka a deal drawn up by a remainer pm and the eu to essentially keep us tied to the eu) against remain. That is why leavers are up in arms.
But, pre-referendum, it was made clear that, if Leave won, we would negotiate a deal with the EU.

The 'no-deal' stuff has only really come about post-referendum; led by the hedge-fund managers that think they might be able to benefit from an economic crash and politicians who think they can use it to advance their own careers.

If Leavers didn't want us to negotiate a deal with the EU, they ought to have read the pre-referendum literature.

I vote remain, albeit very narrowly, but would not want a second referrendum.
I totally understand why people want one, who likes losing after, but the reason I don't want one is as the saying goes; "
Be careful what you wish for, it may come true"

A second referrendum smacks of ignoring those who voted leave because they felt ignored by the political elite, we have to take part in Euro elections (I wonder how that will go for the main parties?) and the rise of Nigel Farage again, add in the tagline for the leave campain "Tell them again" and not only do I think leave would win, they would win with an increased majority.

I have no problem with a second referendum, but I do not think it will happen. If we can have a general election in 2015 and change our mind in the one in 2017, then we could change our mind about leaving the EU.

Leavers I suspect fear a remain vote, though I would not be that confident. There would be those who would vote Leave because they feel being asked again is an affront.

Of course, this time round they'd include all us millions of British citizens unfairly excluded from the first one and it'd be a landslide for remain

Any subsequent vote would have to be a mandatory referendum. The first referendum was advisory, and had no direct effect. But any referendum on the deal would realistically have to have automatic affect - much akin to the AV referendum (if people had voted for AV, it would have automatically had effect, with no further legislation needed).

I think a final referendum makes sense - think of it like buying a house, the first referendum was the equivalent of "let's buy this house". The government has worked hard to start the process off, figured out the details, how it's financed, how it's insured, etc. We've now had the survey back, and it's shockingly bad. Now some people might decide location is everything and it's worth proceeding, some people might decide that we should back out, despite the sunk cost of buying.

The only way that a binding (i.e. automatic application in law) referendum "betrays" democracy is if the country has changed its mind. There would be no further votes or prevarication - a remain vote would trigger rescinding A50, a Leave vote would automatically ratify the deal.

Note, for those stating that any "deal" would not be leave - you are all aware this is nonsense. Half the people on the leave campaign team were suggesting Switzerland and Norway as target options, as have many Eurosceptics. Additionally Turkey is very much not part of the EU but is in a customs union with it. There are plenty of bad things about the deal, but stating only "no deal" is acceptable leave wasn't a view held at the time of the referendum, it's just extremism, and some attempt to be able to say "if only you'd done it my way Brexit would have been a success" if it turns out to be a disaster.

I don’t see a problem with having another vote on the actual deal that’s available. I know a few people that voted Leave ‘in protest’ the first time round and have regretted it ever since. Personally I think it’s a bit silly to vote for something unless you genuinely want it to happen but each to their own!

I really see a second referendum as the only realistic way forward at this point, but there must be a concrete version of Leave on the ballot.

There is a majority in Parliament that would support a version of Brexit, but they can't agree a version amongst themselves and we are left in deadlock.

Whichever version of Leave gets the most parliamentary support ought to be put to the people.

Then, if it wins, get it implemented.

If it loses, we remain.

A public vote now is both the best way to deliver Brexit, and the best way to stop Brexit. Let's resolve the impasse and move forward.

I voted Remain. And I’d vote the same way again now. The UK has a responsibility to uphold the Good Friday Agreement which will be in jeopardy if the UK leaves the EU. But Leavers don’t give a damn about that unfortunately. And if they do, none of them ever put forward a viable solution to avoid a potential return to terrorism in the UK by creating a hard border between the UK (NI) and the EU (Republic of Ireland)

DelilahfromDenmark

Its a shame that it wasn't such a high priority for remain, as it would have made a good campaign point.

As a Leave voter in favour of a second ref. to sort the current farce out, please ask MNHQ to add the word 'Some' to your title OP. I am fucking sick of the homogenization of millions of people on here!

If parliament are working so very hard to to dishonour the result of the first referendum why should any leave voters have any confidence that they would honour the result of a second should the vote again be to leave?

this

They will then spend two years rowing over what should be the question

If parliament are working so very hard to to dishonour the result of the first referendum why should any leave voters have any confidence that they would honour the result of a second should the vote again be to leave?
The difficulty is that it is people like Boris Johnson, who were Leavers, who are now preventing Brexit.

Before the referendum, we were told a vote for Leave was a vote to negotiate a deal for leaving the EU. That was on the Leave campaign literature which was mailed to every household. That was what was in the government paper on Leave, which was mandated by the Act that gave us the referendum.

The Leave campaign, including Boris, told us about all the fantastic deals we would negotiate, and how we would easily negotiate a good deal cementing our future relationship with the EU.

However, now that we actually have a deal on the table, Boris, Rees Mogg and alike keep torpedoing it, telling us that a vote for Leave was actually a vote for No Deal. A large chunk of Leave voters are lapping that up, despite it not being either (a) the question that was on the ballot, or (b) the Brexit that was promised by the Leave campaign.

Leave = No Deal is a lie, and those who pedal it are preventing us leaving with a deal that resembles the sort we were promised.

JRM is probably promoting it for his own financial self-interest. Boris is doing it to try and progress his career ambitions. A handful of MPs are probably doing it out of ideological purity and a refusal to compromise. Together, they are all preventing Brexit.

I acknowledge that the Irish border remains a huge issue under May's deal, but it would help to have certain Leave supporters try to solve that problem, instead of trying to steer us to a No Deal Brexit that no one voted for, or simply trying to oust Theresa May.

I agree completely caz

@DelilahfromDenmark maybe all of the pricks who liked to send and plant nail bombs can maybe just not do it?

Or is that beyond the collective IQ on that side of the Irish Sea? To not be a total fucking cockwomble and murder innocent people and their children.

@Caztonette everyone I know who voted Leave wanted out. They didn't want a deal. They wanted all ties cut and new trade agreements drawn up post Brexit - outside of the trading block.

@Fiveredbricks

That's nice, but that wasn't the question on the ballot. I don't really care any more than if your friends and acquaintances voted Leave thinking it meant free ice cream.

The preamble to the Referendum Act made clear it was a vote on EU membership.

Section 7 of the Referendum Act mandated the government to publish a paper on the relationships non-member states have with the EU.

The government published that paper, and it described various models, including a Norway-style or Canada-style ageeement. The paper concluded that, in the event of Leave winning, the UK would likely try to negotiate a deal that gave us access to the single market.

Here it is if you want to read it: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504604/Alternatives_to_membership_-_possible_models_for_the_UK_outside_the_EU.pdf - better late than never eh?

The Leave campaign flyers (one of which was posted on the last page) also said we would leave with a deal.

If someone tells you they voted for no deal, they are telling you that they couldn't be fucked to actually read about the Referendum before they voted in it.

No deal just means accepting the WA at a later date, but with chaos in between. The EU have set out their terms in the WA as negotiated by the PM (with her red lines). People who advocate no deal need to understand that all it means is chaos and then accepting the same (or worse) terms that the EU were offering before (which were what the PM wanted anyway)

My friends and family who voted leave voted on the understanding that we would be able to negotiate an awesome deal

I voted remain. I dont want a second vote and if there is one I would vote leave on principle. The contempt shown to democracy scares me more than crashing out.

I am against a second referendum because I don’t trust the Government to honor and admit the result if it were an overall leave majority again. Having another referendum is just having another throw at the dice for them to try and get the result that they want.

I think I read somewhere that every poll says people would still vote to leave,

Nope. Those who wish to remain are in the majority
Shift in support