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Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

530 replies

stillpinching · 07/04/2019 13:14

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

OP posts:
OldSpeclkledHen · 08/04/2019 08:15

It's not best of three! We've already had TWO votes. Get over it.

DippyAvocado · 08/04/2019 08:23

I'm going to repost the Peter Oborne article that someone posted upthread. It's essential reading for both leavers and remained IMO.

Oborne is a Daily Mail journalist and prominent supporter of Leave. He now advocates taking advantage of the offer of a long pause and rethinking.

He talks about all the reasons he voted leave and the economic/political reality of what is really happening. He admits he hadn't thought of the negative consequences for Ireland. I don't agree with everything he says but he covers almost all areas of concern and it's very thoughtfully written and really does show the reality of the situation.

www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

Iggly · 08/04/2019 08:28

It's not best of three! We've already had TWO votes. Get over it

We haven’t had a vote on the nature of our relationship with the EU.

No deal implies no relationship which is bullshit - they’re our biggest trading partner.
We need to negotiate one.

Windowsareforcheaters · 08/04/2019 08:30

Leave campaign had more than the usual level of detritus the Electoral Commission defined it as "corrupt and illegal". This was more than 'the usual'.

Although, the your general point about holding politicians to account is correct i don't think it's possible under our current electoral system with the level of tribalism that exists.

Windowsareforcheaters · 08/04/2019 08:32

@OldSpeclkledHen

Get over it

A massively unhelpful comment in the same league as Remainers calling leavers 'gammon'.

It forces people to take sides, it is negative and adds nothing to the debate.

AlaskanOilBaron · 08/04/2019 08:34

What’s your point exactly? Theresa May didn’t get much involved at first.

She left it to David Davis and Boris.

Why are people conveniently forgetting this fact.

You mean Davis and Raab?

Why do you assume I've forgotten this 'fact'? I disagree with your characterisation of 'leaving them to it' as Raab was immediately deputised, but they both resigned, saying she had yielded too much ground, too soon, and had not given them the latitude to do their jobs.

In other words, they were hamstrung by Hammond, Liddington, and Robbins.

MotherHeyho · 08/04/2019 08:35

As a remainder, I fear a second referendum. We have a lot more information now about the illegalities of the Leave campaign and how difficult and disastrous Brexit would be. But you cannot assume that people will react logically to this further information. You only have to look at some of the posters on this thread, some of whom are applying complete toddler logic: “I’M BORED!!! Brexit probably will be catastrophic but I don’t care! I’m just fed-up of this whole thing now so I’ll just vote for it!” Lots of people are of this mindset and remainers are deluding themselves if they think everyone will be calmly and logically researching the pros and cons of Brexit ahead of a second referendum. They won’t.

AlaskanOilBaron · 08/04/2019 08:38

A massively unhelpful comment in the same league as Remainers calling leavers 'gammon'.

It forces people to take sides, it is negative and adds nothing to the debate.

I tend to agree that this is not helpful language. That said, it will be Parliament writing the referendum questions (happy to be corrected here) and I would not be happy with that -particularly as no deal is off the table but presumably revoking article 50 would not be.

I think an election makes much more sense.

AlaskanOilBaron · 08/04/2019 08:39

You only have to look at some of the posters on this thread, some of whom are applying complete toddler logic: “I’M BORED!!! Brexit probably will be catastrophic but I don’t care! I’m just fed-up of this whole thing now so I’ll just vote for it!” Lots of people are of this mindset and remainers are deluding themselves if they think everyone will be calmly and logically researching the pros and cons of Brexit ahead of a second referendum. They won’t.

Another high-minded remainer, I see. Wink

SosigDog · 08/04/2019 08:52

*Therefore any new referendum would consist of

  1. Remain
  2. Leave with The Deal

If Corbyn gets his way the deal will include remaining in the Customs Union and single market and keeping freedom of movement.*

I voted Leave and don’t want either of those options. My main reason for voting Leave was related to freedom of movement, because unskilled immigration needs to be reduced. It’s not fair to offer two options neither of which address the reason I (and many others) voted Leave.

In terms of the economic consequences I couldn’t care less. I don’t own a business. I can’t afford holidays. If Brexit hits some rich people in the wallet then so much the better.

DelilahfromDenmark · 08/04/2019 08:52

maybe all of the pricks who liked to send and plant nail bombs can maybe just not do it

Or is that beyond the collective IQ on that side of the Irish Sea? To not be a total fucking cockwomble and murder innocent people and their children

If you’re questioning the intellect of an entire province, luckily the answer is yes, most people want to live in peace and tend not to send nail bombs.
The GFA can only exist with no hard border. Creating a hard border contravenes that international peace treaty.

AlaskanOilBaron · 08/04/2019 09:04

Alaskan why should anyone come over here for talks? It's us who are leaving and causing all the trouble.

Sorry, I missed this earlier. So your point is, why would Barnier (an EU bureaucrat) travel to the Prime Minster of the United Kingdom to discuss its future trading agreement? You think it's more sensible that the Prime Minister should make hundreds of trips to see him?

ContinuityError · 08/04/2019 09:10

They've effectively frustrated the Brexit process including WTO preparations

What WTO preparations have been “frustrated”?

The UK published its schedules months ago?

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 08/04/2019 09:14

No

We had a referendum the question was very clear cut and the PM and MP’s that voted to have a referendum (the vast majority) agreed in principle to stand by the result

I am not convinced the result would be different

DippyAvocado · 08/04/2019 09:17

From the Oborne article about WTO:

WTO weakness
This is even more the case because of the new forces which have been driving history in the two years since our Brexit referendum. We are seeing the frightening collapse of the liberal post-war ‘global’ economic order and the emergence in plain sight of a fist-brandishing system of protectionist blocs.

In this new and dangerous environment, it is folly to rely on the World Trade Organization (WTO). Yet the WTO is fundamental to the Brexiteer economic model. Under attack from Donald Trump’s America and Xi Jinping’s China it is losing the ability to ensure a free market of goods and services. In the Trump and Xi world, relying on the WTO to ensure free trade is like relying on the United Nations to protect human rights: all they can offer are well-meaning but impotent resolutions. When Xi met EU leaders on his visit to Europe last week, I suddenly felt alarmed that Britain wasn’t there.

bellinisurge · 08/04/2019 09:19

Nobody is forced to support anything. You can't get out of poor judgment by saying you have no choice but to support WTO/Crash out. And certainly not because you perceive people are being mean to you.

stillpinching · 08/04/2019 09:25

I started this then couldn't come back on but I can't believe how dismissive some people are about the illegality. This stuff matters. Tbh we deserve all we get if the attitude is how boring, not this again.

OP posts:
Cottonwood · 08/04/2019 09:30

Sosigdog please tell me you don't think that a No Deal Brexit will only affect a few rich remainers who want to go hassle free in holiday to Europe? If you are not well off are you seriously thinking you will be fine with an economic contraction of anything between 6-10% depending on whereabouts you live in the UK?

Cottonwood · 08/04/2019 09:31

Alaskan hundreds of pointless bloody trips as she is so rigid in her thinking.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 08/04/2019 09:39

I can’t afford holidays. If Brexit hits some rich people in the wallet then so much the better

My friend is going to euro Disney for a weekend with 2 other members of their family next month

They cant afford for all of them to go, this is their first holiday abroad and their first holiday that doesn't involve staying at family/friends houses in the uk. They have been saving for years

I'll tell them they are rich

AlaskanOilBaron · 08/04/2019 09:40

Alaskan hundreds of pointless bloody trips as she is so rigid in her thinking.

Agreed.

Tolleshunt · 08/04/2019 09:46

Sosig leaving aside your bitter, dog-in-the-manger attitude to people richer than you, have you been living under a rock these last ten years?

How has it escaped your attention that during times of financial constraint/economic contraction (which Brexit will bring, nobody sensible on the leave side denies this) it is the POOR who suffer?

Who suffered most under austerity? The poor and those who had been just about managing, that's who. The sick and disabled. Women, disproportionately.

When tax receipts dwindle, and spending cuts are needed once again, who do you think will be hit by that?

If you are feeling the pinch now, how will you feel when food is considerably more expensive, and services, tax credits etc, have been cut? What if you lose your job (if you have one)?

The richer in society will weather the storm. They have the resources to do so. Some will make money out of it, the likes of JRM, Crispin Odey, etc. Off the backs of children who are already living in poverty, the disabled, and those who already have few advantages.

Shame you were feeling too resentful of the better off to clock all that.

stillpinching · 08/04/2019 09:47

Someone said all the remainer politicians are in London. Not true. Many are in leave areas and putting country before party and career in what I consider to be an admirable way. Cooper, Grieves and soubry are just a few high profile examples. People like Caroline flint and John Mann know perfectly well leave, especially with no deal, would be disastrous for their constituents but they want to protect their own jobs above anything else.

Anyone who thinks if we 'just get out' in the next few weeks that will be the end of it is utterly dilusional. It will just be the start of a long and painful process that will be taken over by someone like Johnson. We should all be scared of that.

Likewise anyone who thinks the BBC is biased in favour of remain clearly doesn't listen to today r4 or ever watch QT. The air time given to members of the erg like they are important is disgraceful, as is John Humphreys.

OP posts:
Tolleshunt · 08/04/2019 09:48

I started this then couldn't come back on but I can't believe how dismissive some people are about the illegality. This stuff matters. Tbh we deserve all we get if the attitude is how boring, not this again.

I agree. I hope it's not the same leavers who are complaining about being called 'thick'.

AlaskanOilBaron · 08/04/2019 09:50

Likewise anyone who thinks the BBC is biased in favour of remain clearly doesn't listen to today r4 or ever watch QT.

I do indeed watch QT. Perhaps you saw Fiona Bruce yesterday defending the Remainer panel composition to lone Brexiteer Charles Moore, saying that the previous week it had been stacked full of Brexiteers?

That was a lie.