Leavers being so dead against a second referendum is just proof they know they'll lose, surely?

[stillpinching]

If we had one and they won again it would be the ultimate confirmation that it really is the will of the people.

By refusing to countenance it and describing it as a betrayal they may as well say it's not the will of the people anymore we're insisting on honouring something no one with any sense and without a vested interest wants and we should therefore call it off.

We're being forced into something the people who most support it clearly know is no longer the people's choice that's going to do horrible damage to the country. Just why can no one stop it???

I was only responding to your gem:
"As far as I know there are no proven psychics and we haven't nailed time travel yet, so no one can know this for sure."

bellinisurge

Because you are using racism to further your cause based on lies and deceit.

You are supporting a cause that actively sort to bring racism to the front of its campaign and ignore the vast majority of other issues that could have swayed others to your point of view.

Nope. Pointing out that some people are racist is not racist. I'm sure you know darned well what these bastards have been doing and saying and your attempts to deflect attention away from them do not look good.

I'm not deflecting attention away from anything, I am pointing out to you that the remain campaign used accusations of racism to try and further their campaign.

Its just another unpalatable truth that remainers seem to want to block out.

I lost; you won. Get over it. And keep those racist bastards back in the shit hole they belong in.
Or am I responsible for them?

@bellinisurge How dare you have the nerve to respond to my sarcasm with more sarcasm?? You are supposed to do as I say not do as I do... isn't that how mumsnet works?

Seriously, no hard feelings or offence meant. What a strange world it would be if we all had the same points of view. I guess we all just have to wait and see the outcome of this whole sorry mess.

@Lifeonmars77

still racism bingo on this thread eh?
how very boring
Brexit will make it all irrelevant

Bellinisurge - some Remainers used racism to further their cause. By pinning such an abhorrent term to all leave voters as has repeatedly happened since the leave vote, those who used this tactic were effectively trying to push themselves forward by pushing others down, ie if you a good caring person, you cant align yourself to leavers as they are all racist, if you have any sense you cant align yourself to leavers because they are all stupid, buying stupid lies. The standard lie of Leavers being all racists emboldened the actual racists to believe that the rest of the 17.4 million also held the same beliefs, and where did that assumption come from, it certainly wasn't from the leave side, lets face it no one wants to associate themselves with racists. No one is going to push as racist forward to represent their views, because most people would realise how this would look to right thinking people. If you saw racists "representing" leavers, it most certainly wasn't the choice of most leave voters. Consider who picked these people to be interviewed. Using these people as a "representative view" benefited someone's agenda but I can guarantee it certainly wasn't that of the majority of leave voters. Remember the media is only as truthful and representative as the editor

Go bellini, you're right of course. The swerving and twisting of arguments from the leavers,tactics of desperation, reflecting and projecting the unfortunate opinions held by so many of them are absurd. If anyone missed Will Self and Mark Francois standing off against one another like a couple of stroppy dogs on this topic do have a look on you tube. It'll cheer most people up. Unless you're a fan of Monsieur Francois. No cedilla, of course, its a bit foreign.

Deflection thanks autocorrect.

Which point of view are racists festering on? Yes it all makes great TV to give these twats airtime but which side are they sitting on? It is incumbent upon anyone who supports Leave to virulently disassociate themselves from those people. It's easy. You just say "I despise those twats who think they speak for me" and go on to explaining your position.
It's seems like just because people who voted Remain are criticising them, there must be something ok about them.
Shut them down every single time because they are using your strong feelings to get noticed.
And each time you fail to do it, I assume (rightly or wrongly) it's because you secretly agree with them.

The Leave campaign was associated with that appalling poster and a large degree of dog whistle racism surrounding immigration. UKIP is now clearly racist and Yaxley-Lennon regular speaks, acts and works for Brexit.

The Remain campaign was just a bit crap. Useless and pompous but not racist or malevolent.

How hard is it to do what bellinisurge says and loudly and clearly disassociate yourself and then move on to why you think Brexit is brilliant?

The tribalism that is developing is really dangerous.

Window - I have already done both thanks. The Remain campaign might not have been racist per se but has undoubtably played the race card to furthers its position. There have been very sinister issues with the Remain campaign, albeit much more covert. But as I was saying we are stuck with the editing of a few people as to what we see in the news.

Yaxley Lennon and a UKIP too overtly racist for Farage is the monster that has been created. Call them out repeatedly and loudly or don't. And if you (general you) don't , I can only draw one conclusion from that.

The problem with this reasoning is that it has a chilling effect on any discussion of freedom of movement, because yes of course, racists will always prefer tighter immigration controls. No one disputes that.

There's discord over unchecked immigration across many (most?) member states, this is a time for more discussion rather than less if the EU is to achieve its goals of further integration/harmonisation (undesirable though they may be to the Eurosceptics amongst us).

Asking an educated, liberal Brexiteer (insomuch as you can believe they exist), to disavow the likes of Tommy Robbinson is a bit like asking an educated, liberal Muslim to disavow ISIS, isn't it?

(I can't imagine asking my gorgeous, cosmopolitan, ((remainer)) FIL to disavow ISIS, I'm pretty sure he'd consider me stupid for asking).

Believe it or not, I don't have any more access to these types of people than you Remainers do. I was on the Brexit march to Westminster some weeks ago - I must admit I was prepared for some middle-class culture shock but none was forthcoming.

There is hard evidence about this though -

www.natcen.ac.uk/news-media/press-releases/2017/september/new-report-uncovers-extent-of-racial-prejudice-in-britain/

I'm sure you're familiar with the pitfalls of self-reported data, figment.

If you fear the chilling effect then fight it. Disassociate yourself in the strongest terms from the racist scum and own your side of the debate. Don't whinge at people who disagree with you and blame them for the nasty racists who are making a revolting stench around you. Again, this is "you" in general terms. Unlike other furrin languages, English doesn't differentiate clearly enough between you plural and you singular

One of the problems is the way we are being pushed into tribes. You support all or nothing.

We as individuals need to draw clear lines. I am of the left although not a member of the Labour Party, I am clear as to my views on anti semitism. Many on the left are not because they hate the tories more than they hate anti semitism, the same with Brexit.

We need to add nuance to the debate by educating ourselves and others. This is one of the reasons I spend many hours repeatedly posting the constitutional points about the referendum. (It was advisory btw)

Agree @Windowsareforcheaters

Maybe remainers are Just sore losers. Like for example I detest the Tories. However was there a second GE because I didn't like it? No it was a case of tough shit. A majority of the British Public for some very strange reason do love them,(Tories) so They're here!!!!!. Just like Brexit. Also what happens if its an even split.

However OTOH. We didn't really know what we Were voting for last time, so I'm not denying that there is a chance the result could be different.

I personally what the Government should do is. Ask the public do they want another vote rather than just revoking article 50. Like I say that's not fair on the leavers who've not changed their minds.

To be honest I'm.surprised the Government didn't just fix the vote to remain. After all we wouldn't have been none the wiser, would we, and it would have been a lot less work for them.

I'm not in favour of a PV. Is your mind blown by the possibility that Remain voters don't fit your stereotype @Awwlookatmybabyspider

Bellinsurge who is the “you” supposed to be? Certainly can’t trust the camelions in parliament to do anything let alone represent us apparently. There’s no leader of leavers, so who should be distancing themselves from whom? Do you want me to say tommy Robinson is a twat? Fine
He is.

But it does seem like we’ve come full circle. There’s been numerous valid arguments, based on primary sources as to why people voted leave on this thread, most of which have been ignored, so here we are back at the racism again, once that’s dealt with will we be back to numbers on buses?

I want to hear David Davis, Boris, Raab, Farage, Rees-Mogg and anyone else who gets a microphone stuck under their nose say it. And, frankly, anyone in my area who is still lobbying for No Deal. I live in a strong Leave area with lots of Free Tommy graffiti. Do not take it as read that I think you're a nice non racist. I'm afraid you have to slag those twats off loud and proud.