To be furious that DS and friends have drawn on faces with sharpie at sleepover

[peoplepleaser1]

Yesterday was DS' 12th birthday. He had 6 friends sleep overnight.

They've been no trouble but I've got up this morning to find they've drawn on the faces of two sleeping friends with sharpie whilst they were asleep.

They have drawn moustaches, bushy eyebrows and cheek roses. I've tried to remove it with them but it's still quite visible. Both kids have quite pale skin which has made it even more visible.

I'm mortified, and upset and angry that DS let this happen under our roof. I was responsible for these kids and I feel terrible that they did this.

I've told DS to carry on as normal and that I'll deal with him once they've all gone home.

I'm not usually very strict and DS is usually a good kid but I'm really annoyed with him- well with all of them tbh but it's not my place to do anything about that.

DS is going to his dads tonight, we aren't together. I have mentioned it to him and he has said I'm ridiculous and overreacting. I planned to ban DS from electronics for a couple of days but his Dad has said he won't back me up so I can't do that.

AIBU and overreacting?!

cabcab

I did not say that the effects were the same, that they were comparable, that they were in any way the same magnitude.

I said the issue of consent is the same. Ie that no one has the right to touch anyone else without consent.

cabcab at no point in time have I said that the perpetrators should get an absolute bollocking. I have said that I think the OP reacted correctly both in respect of the perpetrators and the drawn on children. Not laughing, not belittling them, not victim blaming. But treating them with respect.

What I have hated are people saying that the victims should suck it up as they are going to get worse thrown at them.

@LittleChristmasMouse that's what you inferred you compared the two! VILE!!! DISGUSTING!! SHAMEFUL!!

The two incidents are NOTHING alike!

@ineedaholidaynow I totally agree, rollocking you don't do that and don't do it again. Move on.

But we've had comparison to rape, life changing, growing up to be abusers blah blah

Some people are acting like one stupid mistake by a group of giddy kids at a party makes them vile future bullies.

cabcab

No that is what you chose to see.

I did not say that nor imply it. I said the issue of consent is the same - you cannot have a sliding scale of consent. Oh I can do this, this and this to you if you are passed out and unconscious but not this.

You teach kids that you do not touch someone else without their consent.

Cabcab You sure you don't like the drama?

Some people are acting like one stupid mistake by a group of giddy kids at a party makes them vile future bullies.

Not future bullies, no. This was bullying. Done by a group to humiliate 2 others.

@LittleChristmasMouse the two things should not be in the same conversation, end of! God you've shown yourself to not be able to show any concept. What a dreadful role model you must be to your children.

@LittleChristmasMouse get a grip, theses children may be bullies but are probably not, they're children who made an error

I would HATE to have your children at a sleepover and I'm sure they're avoided being invited to stuff due to your helicopter, OTT, analysing and frankly poor parenting.

@GPatz not in real life no, but you do realise this is just a forum?

Calling other posters "high drama adults" and then posting stuff like "I fucking heard it all now!!!", "What a dreadful role model you must be to your children." and "VILE!!! DISGUSTING!! SHAMEFUL!!" doesn't strike you as slightly ironic Cab?

Yes they should be in the same conversation because consent should be about this very issue.

This is what consent means. It means that you don't do something these things and give examples from the small seemingly inconsequential stuff up to the big stuff.

How many boys don't "get" what rape is? They don't understand what consent is. If a woman gets into bed and then passes out some men think that's consent to sex.

So yes actually these things do need talking about in the same sentence. These boys are 12. It is not inconcievable that in the next year or 2 (if not already) that they will be getting intimate with girls. They need to understand boundaries and respecting them.

@LittleChristmasMouse is right - consent is an absolute. A black and white issue. It isn’t a sliding scale, as she says. Why would you want to teach children that consent is ambiguous, and there are some things it is OK to do to a sleeping/unconscious person, but others that are not?

Surely it is better to teach people that you don’t do things to another person without their consent, and that a sleeping person cannot give consent. That is what she is saying - she is not saying that the degree of harm is the same, but that harming a sleeping person, whether in a mild or very serious way, is wrong.

I would HATE to have your children at a sleepover and I'm sure they're avoided being invited to stuff due to your helicopter, OTT, analysing and frankly poor parenting.

Rest assured the feeling is mutual. I wouldn't have wanted my children mixing with kids who don't understand that you don't humiliate your friends, you don't take advantage of your friends while they are asleep, that consent and boundaries don't matter so long as you are doing it for a laugh.

@LittleChristmasMouse the moment you compared rape to this, you lost any respect at all! I'm leaving that with you joe now... I've run out of time, you clearly have infinite time to push your thoughts down everyone else's throat.

Interesting reading back I'm not the only one that wouldn't want to entertain your kids.

So cabcab do you think there is a sliding scale for consent?

@cabcab - I would be interested to hear your views on the sliding scale of consent. What is it OK to do to a sleeping or unconscious person, in your view?

Why do you think that consent is not a clear cut, binary issue? Where do you draw the line - what would you tell your children they could and couldn’t do to a sleeping friend? Would a minor assault be OK or unacceptable? What about altering their appearance in a way that lasts for days or weeks?

@LittleChristmasMouse is NOT comparing drawing on someone with a Sharpie to rape - she is saying that a sleeping person cannot give consent for sex or a sharpie ‘prank’ or anything in between - I don’t think that is hard to understand.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

Thank you. That's exactly what I meant.

Obviously there's not a sliding scale of consent, but I do think it is definitely worth discussing with kids issues like non-verbal consent and presumed consent and when it is and isn't ok to rely on those in lieu of verbal consent.

I don't think making out consent is always straightforward and 100% clearcut is necessarily helpful. This could be a really useful opportunity to discuss more complex issues.

PCohle probably going slightly off tangent but there was a programme on tv a few months ago about sexual harassment in the workplace. It was set in a bar and it was mainly do with a male bar manager and a female coworker. They showed various scenarios to a mixed audience of young adults and asked them to say if they thought any of the actions could constitute sexual harassment. None of the actions were particularly overt. There were mixed responses. They brought a lawyer in who explained that pretty much everything they had seen could be seen as a problem legally. The young people were really shocked and it was a real eye opener. It would be a good programme to show older teens.

I agree with Mouse too. Cabcab, it reads as if you are either deliberately misunderstanding for effect and to make her look more extreme than she actually is, or you just aren’t comprehending what she’s saying properly.

“Shouldn’t be in the same conversation” - how weird. Why not? It can be really helpful to discuss consent in the context of things other than sex/sexual assault.

Yes, we do have to talk about presumed consent and non verbal consent, but neither of these apply to doing something to someone when they are asleep. You can give consent for someone to do something to you while you are asleep/unconscious - surgery would be the first example that occurs to me - but that is very specific and definite consent unless it is a life or death emergency situation.

But someone who is asleep cannot give consent at that point - that is very clear. And you can’t presume consent based on previous consent, if the person is asleep. I have seen women on here giving their accounts of waking up to find their husband/partner having penetrated them, and being told that this is sexual assault/rape - that even in a marriage or long term relationship, no-one can presume consent to have sex with someone else based on them having previously consented to sex.

Which is a long winded way of saying it is better to teach people not to presume consent, and certainly not to do things to someone who is asleep.

Cab please read my post above. It's very personal and not something I ever discuss in RL.
But I was always the one expected to accept people stepping over consent boundaries. To take things as a prank despite feeling uncomfortable or humiliated.
I didn't learn how to put in boundaries.

This led me to being sexually assaulted.

In this case the 2 may be very far apart.

With regards consent and boundaries being black and white - they absolutely are.

Last night I rolled my DH on to his side whilst he slept to stop him snoring.

I disagree that "you can't presume consent based on previous consent, if the person is asleep" except in life and death scenarios. That's a scenario where I presumed consent not even on the basis of prior consent but based on the context, our relationship and the nature of the touch.

Consent is a complex, multi-faceted issue. I don't think we do children any favours by downplaying the nuances.