To be furious that DS and friends have drawn on faces with sharpie at sleepover

[peoplepleaser1]

Yesterday was DS' 12th birthday. He had 6 friends sleep overnight.

They've been no trouble but I've got up this morning to find they've drawn on the faces of two sleeping friends with sharpie whilst they were asleep.

They have drawn moustaches, bushy eyebrows and cheek roses. I've tried to remove it with them but it's still quite visible. Both kids have quite pale skin which has made it even more visible.

I'm mortified, and upset and angry that DS let this happen under our roof. I was responsible for these kids and I feel terrible that they did this.

I've told DS to carry on as normal and that I'll deal with him once they've all gone home.

I'm not usually very strict and DS is usually a good kid but I'm really annoyed with him- well with all of them tbh but it's not my place to do anything about that.

DS is going to his dads tonight, we aren't together. I have mentioned it to him and he has said I'm ridiculous and overreacting. I planned to ban DS from electronics for a couple of days but his Dad has said he won't back me up so I can't do that.

AIBU and overreacting?!

@youarenotkiddingme your friend's opinion is not postworthy nor more important or valid than anyone else's here just because of her job title.

What I have tried to make a link to, are so many people on here are saying it's just a prank, boys will be boys, it will get worse as they get older, as if it is all acceptable.

The boys who bullied my son by kicking him in the privates were in Y1, they thought it was a funny new game and were going to do it to other boys too. Luckily school put a stop to it. But it was excused by the mother as boys being boys. Keep teaching boys that, when does it stop.One of the boys involved continued to bully children throughout his time at the Primary School.

I'm not saying the boys at the sleepover were bullies, but I think the OP was right to tell her DS that what he did was wrong, and to learn that what he had done had upset his friends.

What disturbs me are that there are people on here saying the 2 drawn on boys need to man up, that it was a laugh and that they need to get ready to expect worse. Why are parents encouraging boys to take part in worse behaviour. With the pressure of social media, shouldn't we be talking to our children to manage their behaviour with their friends, tell them how to cope with peer pressure, to avoid stupid dares, to really grasp the concept of consent. It doesn't mean they can't have fun, but they are exposed to so much more than I was as a child.

Interesting what the lawyer says, that young people still don't fully get consent, and they believe they didn't do anything wrong it was just a prank or banter, because it would appear from this thread that a lot of parents seem to be encouraging this attitude in pre teens/teenagers.

Interesting what the lawyer says, that young people still don't fully get consent, and they believe they didn't do anything wrong it was just a prank or banter, because it would appear from this thread that a lot of parents seem to be encouraging this attitude in pre teens/teenagers

Exactly this.

She did say that no - something like this wouldn't make court.
Wow I find it amazing your imaginery lawyer friend can know what will and won't be taken to court, especially as a quick Google would show her that such cases had been

Wow I find it amazing your imaginery lawyer friend can know what will and won't be taken to court, especially as a quick Google would show her that such cases had been

So if you've found that similar cases have been taken to court that shows it's not just a silly prank?

Rotten I didn't say it did. But ironically those for this type of behaviour are choosing to read into posts against it creating statements that don't exist.

She's not imaginary 🙄 she works for CPS. Taking a 12yo boy to court is not is the public interest.
When an 11yo pulled a knife on ds a few years ago in school that also didn't warrant further action. He has punishment from school (not enough IMO but hey ho).

But that situation the school DHT even used the words "when asked he said he bought it in because he's scared of ".
A) my ds has never hurt anyone in his life
B) this child had hurt mine repeatedly and school have a record of 5 previous incident including him strangling my ds 2.5 weeks previously.

I didn't force it further. IMO it's not about forcing everything through to prove its assault. It's about taking sensible action at the time to teach these young people what is and isn't acceptable and teach them better ways for the future.

The youths carrying knives in London state it's for protection - what hope do they have if the adults educating them use that as an excuse on their behalf when they need to protect the their own establishments image?

And NO. I'm not comparing knife crime to drawing on faces with permanent marker. I'm showing how low level stuff and adult actions can lead to bigger stuff if no one guides these young people to act differently.

Taking a 12yo boy to court is not is the public interest.When an 11yo pulled a knife on ds a few years ago in school that also didn't warrant further action. He has punishment from school (not enough IMO but hey ho)..

Public interest what they use for all crimes, not just children.

The police didnt get involved for a knife incident.

It's very odd because the boy that attacked my daughter was charged. No weapon included.

This case may not get to court. That doesnt mean it never happens. Your friend at the CPS should know there record amounts of pre teens getting charged.

It's disgusting that a knife being pulled on someone was only dealt with in school. But if chose to push further that's your choice.

It’s all a spectrum though isn’t it? Those scoffing and saying it’s just a prank that’s where this stuff starts. Lack of respect for others, ignoring boundaries, unkindness. Same as getting groped in the street and sexually attacked aren’t equivalent but on a continuum. Not every kid who does these smaller acts will end up properly offending but some will.

I have RTFT.

Leaving aside the slightly weird twists this has taken into consent-related debate, I am reminded of something my DS's housemaster said when DS first went to boarding school (he had just turned 13, so a similar age to the OP's son).

He said they will all fuck up at some point. Most of them will fuck up several times over. The important things are:

1. They need to acknowledge and admit that they have done wrong. They might need help with this (namely an adult to point out what's gone wrong).

1. They need to try to put it right.

1. They need to learn from the experience that they are not to repeat this particular behaviour (though they will, of course, fuck up in a different way at some point!)

He said it is absolutely crucial that children/teenagers learn to be honest about their mistakes, without fearing reprisals and unjust punishments from adults.

This was very important to me, as XH was a great one for vile and disproportionate punishments. As a result, DS took up denying/minimising/excusing himself, for fear of what might happen if he came clean with XH. Fortunately, the school's approach (which is the same as mine) seems to be working.

In short: rather than hefty punishments, I'd say it's more about acknowledging that children do thoughtless, silly, unkind things, and educating them not to repeat them. Harsh parental punishments just leave the child feeling hard done by, and as if they are the victim (rather than the person they've been unkind to in the first place).

BoardingSchoolMater

But that is all about the wrong doer. What about the victim of the wrong doing?

So working through your list, point 2 is that they should try to put it right - how so in this case?

Of course it's about the wrong-doer, Chrismas. Because the wrong-doer has to learn why it's wrong, and not to do it again. In the case of the 'consent' issue, children don't reach some magical age where they suddenly realise that they shouldn't do things to one another without permission. A 12 yo boy drawing on his friends with Sharpie needs to learn now that what might seem to be harmless fun can be interpreted otherwise by the recipient. However, a massive punishment for this particular misdemeanour would just make a 12 yo feel that his parents are mean and unfair and that he is the victim. I'd have thought the education aspect was more important than the punishment aspect (and I don't see what confiscation of electronics would achieve, other than making the 12 yo feel aggrieved. It isn't his place to feel aggrieved: it's his place to feel sorry and a bit ashamed/sheepish).

In this particular case, I would have firstly asked mine why they thought it was a good idea to draw on someone with permanent marker. Did they think it would come off? Did they think at all? How did they imagine their friends would feel about going to school/clubs with marker pen on their faces? How would they feel if it were them?

I would have (re)explained to mine why 'harmless fun' isn't harmless fun unless all parties agree to it. I'd also reiterate that it isn't ok to do things to people without their permission. This applies to interfering with them physically, or taking/posting photos of them.

In terms of reparation: once I thought they had even the vaguest idea of why their behaviour was wrong, I would firstly ask them how they thought they could make it better.

(I have found that it is often a good idea to get children to come up with ideas, as they then 'own' them, rather than just being told to 'say sorry').

If they really couldn't think of anything, I'd suggest they firstly apologise to the other boys. This can have a remarkable effect on children, who are far more forgiving of one another than adults can be of them.

If I thought it really necessary (and I'm not sure that it is, in this case), I might suggest they approach the other boys' parents (if they have the opportunity - I realise the DC in the OP aren't at the same schools) and explain directly why they did what they did (even if the explanation is "we just thought it was funny"). I would then expect them to apologise for having behaved in that way. I would warn the DC that the other parents might give them short shrift - though I think most parents would actually be pretty appreciative of children having the courage to own up and apologise. In fact, a lesson that adults need to teach children is that if you do something rubbish, recognise it, and apologise, you are forgiven and everyone moves on. Though some adults aren't much better than 12 yr olds themselves.

If the children can't do it in person, I'd suggest they write a short note along the same lines.

Sorry - a bit long. But you did ask!

Well put Boarding School.

BoardingSchoolMater

I don't disagree with anything you've said.

My issue has been with the posters who have minimised this by saying it was just a joke, boys being boys and the victims are snowflakes.

I agree with everything you've said BoardingSchool. To be fair I don't think many on this thread were saying the perpetrators should have been hung, drawn and quartered.

However, about 50% PP on this thread think nothing should have been said to the perpetrators, apart from possibly well done for such a great prank. And in fact the ones who should get told off are the two victims for being such snowflakes, and to man up to expect worse things to happen to them at uni/on a stag do.

Boardingschools approach is great. It’s also protecting your own kid as the perpetrator I don’t think minimising or slapping them on the back for a great gag is doing them any favours. Their next joke might get them in proper trouble (litigious/aggressive parents, egg shell skull type victim)

To prove the doubters wrong, here are a couple of photos showing Isopranol alcohol shifting Sharpie laundry marker. Skin is obviously much easier to work with as it doesn't absorb.

It really doesn't prove much.

Why are sharpie tattoos a thing if they just wipe off?

As was said before, colour your face in, leave over night and then remove it. As you are so confident you will have no problem doing it.

This thread has gone on longer than the staining probably has

I don't think posters are understanding how issues like consent are built through incremental steps

Good point -...

I would be very unhappy if my child came home from a sleepover, upset and humiliated.
In these circumstances I would be advising a rethink of the friendships and I guarantee that there would be no more sleepovers with those responsible.

If my child took part in a 'prank' like this I would be furious! He'd lose all electronics for a long while and I would strongly consider an activity ban.

So many people on here saying that it's funny, and implying that anyone who doesn't find it hilarious has no sense of humor. Unbelievable!
Surely children of 12 (and much younger!) Should know that doing anything to another person while they're unconscious is absolutely not acceptable.

If my child took part in a 'prank' like this I would be furious! He'd lose all electronics for a long while and I would strongly consider an activity ban

Why, @RoryGillmoresEvilTwin ?

What would your child learn from that? S/he does something stupid/thoughtless/unkind, and there's a completely random punishment as a result, which makes him/her hate you. How does that help him/her to learn why their actions were wrong? How does it help him/her to try to put it right? How does it prevent them doing it again in the future? It makes no sense at all. If the OP's DS had used his phone/device to photograph his friends, confiscation of said devices is the only and right consequence. But he didn't do this, so it makes no sense to punish it in that way.

The whole point of a larger punishment would be to really hit home why they were being punished...12 is not a small child that 2 days later won't remember or understand why they're being punished.

Also, I don't really care if my kid hates me for a while...I'm trying to raise decent human beings. I won't be held to ransom because I'm worried I won't be liked anymore 😂

@peoplepleaser1

• do you know how the drawn-on boys got on at school this week? Have their parents been in touch?

@RoryGillmoresEvilTwin IME, it doesn't work like that. Excessive and random punishments can create fear, but they don't necessarily educate children to grow up into decent adults. OTT punishments aren't that far from giving children a smack to 'teach them a lesson'.

It's also very weird that you think the alternative to bizarre punishments which bear no relation to the crime is 'being held to ransom' by the idea of 'not being liked'. Being liked by my children is not at the top of my list of priorities. Turning them into considerate and thoughtful adults is, though. Have you read any of my other posts, or indeed any of the other posts on here?