To be furious that DS and friends have drawn on faces with sharpie at sleepover

[peoplepleaser1]

Yesterday was DS' 12th birthday. He had 6 friends sleep overnight.

They've been no trouble but I've got up this morning to find they've drawn on the faces of two sleeping friends with sharpie whilst they were asleep.

They have drawn moustaches, bushy eyebrows and cheek roses. I've tried to remove it with them but it's still quite visible. Both kids have quite pale skin which has made it even more visible.

I'm mortified, and upset and angry that DS let this happen under our roof. I was responsible for these kids and I feel terrible that they did this.

I've told DS to carry on as normal and that I'll deal with him once they've all gone home.

I'm not usually very strict and DS is usually a good kid but I'm really annoyed with him- well with all of them tbh but it's not my place to do anything about that.

DS is going to his dads tonight, we aren't together. I have mentioned it to him and he has said I'm ridiculous and overreacting. I planned to ban DS from electronics for a couple of days but his Dad has said he won't back me up so I can't do that.

AIBU and overreacting?!

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

I assume your dh knows that, if he snores, you will roll him over to stop him snoring, so unless he asks you to stop, it is fair to presume continuing consent.

And yes, it is nuanced, but I would argue that it is better to start from the cut and dried stance that you can’t give consent when you are asleep, and add the nuances, rather than starting from a position where it is OK to to some things to a sleeping person, but not other things. Also, when it comes to sexual contact, I think it is far, far better to make it a clear cut issue - you should make sure that you have consent before sexual contact happens and in ongoing consent during the sexual contact - neither of which is possible if the other person is asleep or unconscious.

Plus you teach the nuances alongside teaching respect - ie. if you do do something to a sleeping person, it isn’t something that will cause them pain, distress or humiliation.

[PCohle]

My concern is that by starting from a black and white position you make it easy for kids to point out the flaws in your stance e.g. "why is it ok for you to tuck me in when I'm asleep", "why does dad carry younger sibling to bed" etc.

I'd always rather be totally honest and upfront with my kids about a topic, even if that adds complexity to our discussions. Making out something is black and white because that makes it easier to discuss isn't helpful imho.

[LittleChristmasMouse]

You do have black and white conversations with children that are age appropriate.

So little children (certainly of the age where you are carrying them up to bed) is around keeping your hands and feet to yourself, the Pants rule etc.

As they get older you have more discussions around consent - tbh the nuance for me gets less as they get older. As parents we take more of the decisions for children. As they get older they do get to make their own decisions. By 10/11/12 they are definitely old enough to fully understand the concept.

[PCohle]

Well yes, but I'm not talking about conversations with children that are of being carried to bed age.

I'm talking about an older sibling using the example of a younger child getting carried to bed as an example of touching someone asleep without their consent.

[PCohle]

I'm surprised you think the nuance in conversations about consent lessens with children's age. Surely you have much more detailed discussions about these issues as your children enter puberty and start to enter relationships etc?

[LittleChristmasMouse]

You have more detailed conversations but the issues are far more black and white when they are older.

As regards why do you carry a child to bed - because parents are responsible for caring for children and until children are old enough parents have to make decisions sometimes. However, until you are a parent you need to work on the basis of obtaining consent, all parties understanding what they are consenting to, someone being asleep, drunk or drugged cannot given consent etc etc

[PCohle]

God, I tend to think discussions have only ever got more nuanced and complex with my kids as they have reached the teen years. I'm glad to find it isn't a universal issue!

[LittleChristmasMouse]

That's why though I think it's better to have some hard and fast rules - it removes doubt.

You can't go far wrong with don't touch someone without their consent can you?

[mama17]

Completely over reacting that's typical sleep over business. They could have been doing much worse.

[ineedaholidaynow]

mama17 I’m assuming you haven’t read the whole thread! Especially the discussion about consent (and the fact that what they did was technically assault)

[PCohle]

You can't go far wrong with don't touch someone without their consent can you?

But there are so many exceptions, caveats and nuances to that that it's virtually meaningless. Teaching children to understand issues around consent is important but not to the extent that common sense is lost. Framing issues as being about kindness and consideration rather than consent isn't problematic in my view.

[LittleChristmasMouse]

But there are so many exceptions, caveats and nuances to that that it's virtually meaningless

Such as?

Kindness and consideration aren't consent though. Someone might want to do something to me out of absolute kindness - it doesn't matter if I don't want that done to me. A dr might have my absolute best interest at heart - it is still my right to accept or decline that treatment.

Motivation for doing something isn't consent.

[EdWinchester]

I would laugh

[ineedaholidaynow]

That's caring Ed

[CarolDanvers]

Even if those it had happened to we’re crying, self conscious and upset? How very unpleasant.

[Nickpan]

I think it's so odd to be discussing at length not touching someone while they're asleep - but not querying why the potential toucher would be in the room watching them sleep in the first place!
Perhaps there's an implied intimacy if you're allowed in the same room as someone sleeping. Not to stroke or sniff, or adjust clothing, or draw on, but is no-one thinking about why people are ok to be in a room where someone is asleep, before thinking about any kind of consent.
Such a weird conversation. At a sleepover, kids tend to be physical anyway (not in a sexual sense), so it's odd to suddenly draw a line.

[LittleChristmasMouse]

It doesn't matter why you are in the room - on a sleep over, sharing a dormitory, in a hospital ward, in bed with a partner you've been married to for 20 years - it doesn't matter.

You have no right to do anything to another person without their consent?

Why is this so hard to grasp? Do you think that past consent is a guarantee of future consent? Do you think that merely by being present in a room that you have given consent? If so for what? I'm sharing a room with a friend - what exactly have I consented to having done to me while I am asleep?

[PCohle]

Well presumption of consent is a big one. In our society it is in fact perfectly to acceptable to touch people in a variety of ways (depending on the context, the type of touch and your relationship with them) without first receiving express consent e.g. tapping a stranger on the shoulder, kissing a spouse, ruffling a friend's child's hair etc.

In general making those situationally appropriate assumptions is not seen as egregious even if the recipient makes clear they actually are not consenting e.g. hugging DH from behind when he's cooking. Drawing on someone's face believing they would find it funny however is an assumption that is both inappropriate and not consented to.

Say I run around chasing my teenage DS and "force" him to hug me. He doesn't consent but actually he doesn't really mind and no one would consider that a serious matter (although seeing the views on this thread I'm sure someone will manage). However, taking that same approach to a more serious violation of bodily autonomy (eg sexual activity) or in the context of a different interpersonal relationship would be totally different.

[Nickpan]

I just kissed my other half without consent.
I might give them a squeeze when they're not looking

[LittleChristmasMouse]

No I disagree. You can make whatever agreements of implied consent between you and your husband or children - those are your relationships to run as you see fit I guess. At some point you will start to stray into grey areas though.

Outside of that no, no one should assume that they can touch someone else.

[ineedaholidaynow]

Nick if your other half had said they didn't want a kiss would you continue?

[PCohle]

The absence of reasonable belief in consent is an element of the offence of rape- s.1(c) SOA 2003.

So you might disagree but the law does not. Morally, absolutely, teach your children to accept nothing less than "enthusiastic consent". But pretending that reasonable assumptions regarding consent aren't something that permeate the world we live in isn't something that will help your children.

Why is spouse and children where you draw the line? What about grandparents, aunts, close friends, romantic relationships (if so how serious?)? Those sort of questions and explanations are exactly the sort of nuanced discussions I think we should be having with kids.

[BoardingSchoolMater]

No comment about my proposed sanction for sleepover misdemeanours, though, @LittleChristmasMouse?

I do think some of your ideas about consent are batty. I told DP to 'stop it' earlier today when he had his hands up my skirt. I didn't mean it, and he knew it, and we had a v nice shag in the kitchen. Consent isn't quite as cut and dried as you seem to think.

[PCohle]

The absence of reasonable belief in consent is an element of the offence of rape- s.1(c) SOA 2003.

So you might disagree but the law does not. Morally, absolutely, teach your children to accept nothing less than "enthusiastic consent". But pretending that reasonable assumptions regarding consent aren't something that permeate the world we live in isn't something that will help your children.

Why is spouse and children where you draw the line? What about grandparents, aunts, close friends, romantic relationships (if so how serious?)? Those sort of questions and explanations are exactly the sort of nuanced discussions I think we should be having with kids.

[PCohle]

Apologies for the double post!