To be furious that DS and friends have drawn on faces with sharpie at sleepover

[peoplepleaser1]

Yesterday was DS' 12th birthday. He had 6 friends sleep overnight.

They've been no trouble but I've got up this morning to find they've drawn on the faces of two sleeping friends with sharpie whilst they were asleep.

They have drawn moustaches, bushy eyebrows and cheek roses. I've tried to remove it with them but it's still quite visible. Both kids have quite pale skin which has made it even more visible.

I'm mortified, and upset and angry that DS let this happen under our roof. I was responsible for these kids and I feel terrible that they did this.

I've told DS to carry on as normal and that I'll deal with him once they've all gone home.

I'm not usually very strict and DS is usually a good kid but I'm really annoyed with him- well with all of them tbh but it's not my place to do anything about that.

DS is going to his dads tonight, we aren't together. I have mentioned it to him and he has said I'm ridiculous and overreacting. I planned to ban DS from electronics for a couple of days but his Dad has said he won't back me up so I can't do that.

AIBU and overreacting?!

[LittleChristmasMouse]

I do think some of your ideas about consent are batty. I told DP to 'stop it' earlier today when he had his hands up my skirt. I didn't mean it, and he knew it, and we had a v nice shag in the kitchen. Consent isn't quite as cut and dried as you seem to think.

You think that's a good thing to promote do you? That when a woman says no to carry on because she probably means yes?

I think I understand consent very well thanks. If I say yes I mean yes. When I say no I mean no. If you want to say no but mean yes, crack on.

[LittleChristmasMouse]

The absence of reasonable belief in consent

You can't have a reasonable belief in consent if the person is asleep can you?

And what constitutes reasonable belief? I go home with a man and get in his bed? Can he reasonably believe that I consent to sex? No he cant.

[PCohle]

What constitutes reasonable belief? Well the CPS states:

"^The test of reasonable belief is a subjective test with an objective element. The best way of dealing with this issue is to ask two questions:

Did the defendant believe the complainant consented? This relates to his or her personal capacity to evaluate consent (the subjective element of the test).

If so, did the defendant reasonably believe it? It will be for the jury to decide if his or her belief was reasonable (the objective element).^"

So might a man subjectively believe that just because you got into bed with him you are consenting to sex? Absolutely. Is that belief reasonable? Not at all.

Did OP's son subjectively believe his friends wouldn't mind having their faces drawn on? Quite possibly. Was that belief reasonable? Nope.

I don't know why you think it's so necessary to be completely black and white with kids regarding these issues. I'm certainly not advocating teaching kids it's fine to have sex with sleeping people, just encouraging them to develop a nuanced, thoughtful attitude towards issues surrounding consent. Personally I think that's a weird thing to object to given how much the issue clearly matters to you.

[LittleChristmasMouse]

You are free to teach your children whatever you like.

Personally, I think a good basis is absence of consent is not consent.

No room for doubt. Yes situations can be nuanced but the basis remains - you need to be absolutely sure that consent has been given.

[PCohle]

So you literally never touch anyone, ever without getting verbal confirmation of consent first? You must know that's bollocks.

[Nickpan]

I think this thread needs to establish if anyone is very religious

[ineedaholidaynow]

Nick have I missed something?

[LittleChristmasMouse]

PCohle

Well, no I don't touch anyone unless they indicate that it is ok. I only touch friends and family tbh. Don't have much cause to touch strangers.

[PCohle]

But how do you know it's ok to touch even friends and family?

You said earlier "Do you think that past consent is a guarantee of future consent?", so I presume that you don't assume it's ok to touch friends and family merely because they have on past occasions consented?

Therefore every time you e.g. hug your spouse or child you ask for them to formally, verbally consent first? Can I ask at what age you felt your children had capacity to deny consent? Do you deem it appropriate to overrule their decisions if their safety is at risk?

[LittleChristmasMouse]

Why do you presume?

I only really hug my friends hello and goodbye - one or other of us would open our arms and the other person would reciprocate.

Same with my children - if I need to touch them in any other way then yes I would and do ask. I might say can I have a kiss goodbye or whatever.

What age could my kids deny consent? For what? Kissing a relative? As soon as they could communicate. Can't really think of any other examples.

Would I override them? Well I never had to. What situation would require it? They are adults now so it won't happen.

I guess the only time would be in a medical situation but it never happened. Anytime they had any medical treatment we just explained it and they agreed.

[PCohle]

I'm presuming it based on what you've said in this thread, as quoted in my previous post.

No, I was talking about your kids consenting to any physical contact with you at all. So nappy changes, bathing, changes of clothes, putting them in a buggy etc. As soon as your kids were old enough to communicate their wishes to you, you'd let them deny consent to all of the above? You wouldn't force them to hold hands when crossing a road even if they objected?

[LittleChristmasMouse]

So you are conflating responsibilities as a parent with consent.

I never pinned my children down and forced them to do something, no.

The concept of consent needs to be introduced early. Little children need to know that it's ok to say no to some things. It is a process that develops as they grow.

[OopsOhNoZHM]

I’d be furious and heartbroken if I found out one of my kids had done this to a friend, but I think I’m a little more sensitive to it as it something my father repeatedly did to me as a kid. Different circumstances but while I was asleep he would draw all over my face with permanent marker, and claim it was to see if I was getting washed on a morning. I was 7/8yrs old and the mirror was too high for me to see in so I never knew until after the bollocking. I would wash but obviously it doesn’t all come off and my father would shout at me, make me scrub my face until it was red raw, then make fun of me all day. It. Is. Awful. I wouldn’t want my child to be a bully like that, even if it seems like ‘harmless banter’ to most people, it’s shitty for the person on the receiving end.

[PCohle]

But you've said repeatedly that consent is an absolutely inviolable black and white issue.

"You have no right to do anything to another person without their consent. Why is this so hard to grasp?"

"you cannot have a sliding scale of consent"

"You can't go far wrong with don't touch someone without their consent can you?"

When faced with examples where actually consent is a little more nuanced, and touching a child against their will is actually necessary and appropriate suddenly you think it's not actually about consent after all it's about parental responsibility?

What happened to "I don't touch anyone unless they indicate that it is ok" and "If I need to touch them in any other way [than hugging] then yes I would and do ask"?

[youknowmedontyou]

It's taken me an age to read this thread!

I must say I've never known anyone so invested in a thread as littlechrristmas, assuming she has the children she indicated she has... blimey she has some spare time!

The incident, in my opinion is not nearly as serious as some posters are indicating, lack of consent, life changing etc, I don't think so. It was a silly thoughtless prank and the OP is no way a bad mother and doubtful the children are bad either.

(Awaits a dressing down by little Christmas which includes a stern talking too and being told as a parent and person I know nothing and must fully agree on her consent thoughts, please don't bother I've honestly read your opinion what seems like a 1,000 times on this thread!)

[BoardingSchoolMater]

@LittleChristmasMouse I'm not exactly promoting it. However, I would hate to have a joyless relationship where DP and I couldn't game play. What about trust? My DC know if I give them a hug without them signing a consent form that I'm not about to abuse them. And vice versa. Unprompted hugging can be very nice, believe it or not.

I love @Nickpan's post, though.

[LittleChristmasMouse]

PCohle

You are being ridiculous and you know it.

The relationship between children and their parents is entirely different. It still doesn't mean that as a parent I have the right to do whatever I want to my child.

If you think it's ok to teach your children that they can do what they want to another person whenever they want then have at it.

Or teach them that the issue is so incredibly nuanced that they end up in situations where either they do something or someone does something to them because they misread the nuance.

Once children are legally liable so from 10 I think they do need to know that there is no sliding scale of consent. And you arrive at that by teaching them in steps as they grow up.

And BoardingSchoolMater if you want to teach your children that no means no although in some circumstances you can ignore that and assume that no means yes (or you would like your children to encounter someone who has been told that ) then good luck.

[PCohle]

I think you're being ridiculous.

Teaching your children that consent is totally black and white when their own relationship with you absolutely doesn't fit into that paradigm is only going to confuse them and make them think that what you're teaching them is actually bollocks.

Of course "The relationship between children and their parents is entirely different.". All I'm suggesting is that when you are teaching your children that consent is absolutely essential and inviolable in every situation with "no sliding scale", you admit enough nuance to actually account for the real world.

Your children have experienced presumed consent and appropriate non consensual contact with you. They know those things are real. Why would you teach them a perspective on consent that doesn't accord at all with (to use a phrase I hate), their own lived experience?

[LittleChristmasMouse]

Ok then.

Managed to raise them to adulthood with no issues and a respect for other people's boundaries, but, whatever.

You have your opinion, I have mine

[PCohle]

Where's the fun in agreeing to disagree?

[BoardingSchoolMater]

Still no reply to my v sensible suggestion of consequences for sleepover misdemeanours, though @LittleChristmasMouse Perhaps it would be too painful to accept that a draconian and meaningless punishment for a relatively minor misdemeanour would be OTT?

That aside, I think it's a pretty joyless state of affairs if you have to have explicit consent for everything, even within a happy, functional, loving, trusting relationship. My DP knows the difference between me saying "no" in a "yes" kind of way, and me saying "no" in a "I really don't feel like it, thanks" kind of way. And vice versa. It would be a bit desperate if neither of us knew one another well enough to be able to tell the difference without a metaphorical signed consent form for every hug/touch/shag.

[LittleChristmasMouse]

@BoardingSchoolMater

Yes, banning future sleepovers is of course a suitable punishment, depending on the regularity of sleep overs I suppose. My son only had about 3 in 5 years at secondary school so banning sleep overs wouldn't have been much of a punishment for him given that the next one might not have occurred for a couple of years. My dd was different, she had one or two every week, so yes, banning her for say a month would have been a punishment.

[PCohle]

My children often attended sleepovers as a form of childcare. Banning them from attending wouldn't have been particularly straightforward.

As I've said I think there are plenty of situations where the punishment can't directly "fit" the crime. That doesn't make alternatives draconian and meaningless.

[OffToBedhampton]

Agree with last poster's last point
I think OP was spot on, right at the start and her subsequent updates. She dealt with it very well.

I'd have been really cross at all the boys who'd done this, told them I was disappointed in them, and expected them to want to apologise to their friends. If be mortified for those boys and their parents and upset it'd happened under my care at my house.

I'd have informed the other parents on both sides. And would be unlikely to invite back to sleepover any DC that still thought it funny & whose parents did too - because we would have too different expectations of behaviour, about humiliating others being unkind or not.

We have lots of sleepovers here, lots of fun, always popular with DC's friends, so it would be a "miss out" for those children in future. And my son for sleepovers for a while, if he wasn't on board too with understanding that wasn't ok thing to do and showing suitable genuine regret & upset for his sharpie drawn on friends, once he'd thought it through more.

Saying to my DS, right you can go without your phone for a couple days might have been on the cards too depending on our discussions after his friends had left. I'm not known for being harsh at all and DC & I discuss things, but I'd no more tolerate friends being humiliated like that than I would our pets being mistreated / taunted for fun during a sleepover or our house or belongings mistreated.
They weren't doing it 'to each other' and it really wasn't kind behaviour. Ain't nobody got time for bullies.