To be furious that DS and friends have drawn on faces with sharpie at sleepover

[peoplepleaser1]

Yesterday was DS' 12th birthday. He had 6 friends sleep overnight.

They've been no trouble but I've got up this morning to find they've drawn on the faces of two sleeping friends with sharpie whilst they were asleep.

They have drawn moustaches, bushy eyebrows and cheek roses. I've tried to remove it with them but it's still quite visible. Both kids have quite pale skin which has made it even more visible.

I'm mortified, and upset and angry that DS let this happen under our roof. I was responsible for these kids and I feel terrible that they did this.

I've told DS to carry on as normal and that I'll deal with him once they've all gone home.

I'm not usually very strict and DS is usually a good kid but I'm really annoyed with him- well with all of them tbh but it's not my place to do anything about that.

DS is going to his dads tonight, we aren't together. I have mentioned it to him and he has said I'm ridiculous and overreacting. I planned to ban DS from electronics for a couple of days but his Dad has said he won't back me up so I can't do that.

AIBU and overreacting?!

@youarenotkiddingme

I agree with everything that you are saying.

I think the people here who can empathise with the boys and who can see that it is wrong are the people who have seen, or felt, the impact of these "pranks".

Those minimising it, I am guessing, are the self styled hilarious pranksters, or the parents of them, who think that anyone who doesn't find them completely hilarious are boring stick in the muds. They have no insight into how their behaviour affects others.

Alcohol will remove it or one of those magic sponges.

Did anyone ask the boys that were drawn on if it would have been funny if it had not been them drawn on? I have teenage boys, this is pretty standard stuff between them and their friends tbh

Triar someone has posted on here that similar happened to them and they now have trust issues when asleep, so it can have a more long term impact on someone. Obviously a number of PP on here will be piling on to that poster saying she should more resilient, her parents were obviously at fault etc, all victim blaming

Christ alive, I didn't use this much mental energy when Dd got drunk at 15.

Christ alive, I didn't use this much mental energy when Dd got drunk at 15.

Was your daughter plied with drink against her will then? Because if she voluntarily got drunk it's not the same at all is it?

Someone choosing to do something is entirely different to someone doing it against their will.

As far as I'm concerned the boy who went to his football match despite being upset and despite being teased was showing resilience. He was upset but went anyway

This 100%. Resilience and bravery isn't never getting upset. It's being upset but getting yourself up and out there anyway. Good for him.

But the original viewpoint is defeatist - at what point did a child become unable to deal with adversity with the support of the parent. I think personally it’s the parents saying this who cannot deal with it - because they are projecting.

I hardly know where to start. Your position seems to assume that everyone is the same. That all children have the same background and the same personality. That all children should be able to deal with adversity in exactly the same way and have exactly the same thought processes and life experiences. What about the many children who have slight additional needs but not enough to be picked up on or get a diagnosis? What about children who have adverse home lives? An absent parent? Painful childhood experiences? What about if a child has an introvert or an extrovert personality? What about a children who are highly sensitive? Your position seems to assume that all children can and will react in the same way so long as the parent Gets It Right. I’m not surprised as having a child with autism I am already aware of how rigid people’s thinking is around for children should behave and develop and the scoffing and criticism that results with they’re not hitting targets acting exactly how they are supposed to.

Pcohle yes I do believe they are connected in some way.
As I expressed in a post - I was always the butt of these "pranks" as I was always told not to make a fuss. Years of accepting tickles I found painful, being covered in sand and mud at beach if I didn't want it, water thrown over me when I said no. Others were taken seriously and I wasn't I was a snowflake who needed to toughen up.

So many years later when men asked me to do things I felt uncomfortable with I didn't know how to say no. I just thought my discomfort was something I had to get over.

Then I was raped.

I wish someone had told me at a young age that I absolutely DID have consent over my own body and that I had a right to stand uk for that.

I wish I hadn't had to be 30+ years before I learnt that consent matters however small others may perceive they've crossed the boundaries.

But yeah - it's totally laughable

youarenotkiddingme

It's insidious isn't it? I don't think posters are understanding how issues like consent are built through incremental steps.

It's like I never forced my kids when they were tiny to kiss a relative or accept a kiss if they didn't want to. On the surface where's the harm? They were relatives, I knew there was nothing untoward but I was giving my kids a message that it's ok for you to choose who touches you.

You can really see how boys coerce girls into doing stuff, just by reading the comments on here " oh go on. Stop being so uptight. Everyone else is doing it". It so easily becomes the "victims" fault and it's their feelings or choices that aren't valid.

We are seeing that expressed here " it's just a laugh" " lighten up" " stop being a snowflake".

youarenotkiddingme

Ime its all about those with biggest mouthed who shout loudest.

I was born a passive personality. I'm not naturally confrontational. I'll back down easily to avoid a scene.
My sister and some cousins (we use to all holiday together) were strong personalities and would keep going on - loudly! - about any perceived or otherwise injustice.

If my sister or strong willed cousins didn't want to get wet everyone had to adapt their play to stop it happening to keep the peace.
If I or another cousin didn't we needed to "lighten up" or "get a sense of humour" because we would play those rolls on command to keep the peace.
If they didn't want tickling no one would because they'd loudly call them out on their behaviour of disrespecting "no" and they didn't want it publicly obvious they were acting against their wishes.
But if I said "no" I had to lighten up - because I would.

People then start to believe you don't mind and even enjoy being the target.

It's only since I got older and got more strength and then had ds - who is autistic - has I learnt to place boundaries more effectively.

I'm not good at it. I find it difficult. But raising a child who is literal and says it how it is (in his mind) I've learnt alongside him. I've taught him to say it but appropriately and without being nasty or rude and Ive learnt to say how i feel and put my case forward well.

Pcole I totally understand the point youarenotkiddingme is making. Generations ago if the male boss ‘playfully’ slapped his secretary’s bum and she complained she would be told to get over it, it’s what men do (ie boys will be boys), it could be worse. Thank god nowadays most parents (I wish it was all) tell their DC that this sort of behaviour is not acceptable. And there are laws backing this up.

However, on this thread we have seen exactly the same language. Telling the boys to get over it as it will only get worse. One PP saying how he left his mate naked on a stag do. If a man did that to a woman, quite rightly there would be an outcry on here. But because it’s a man doing it to another man (assuming without his consent) it’s a laugh, it’s what men do. Who cares if he was totally humiliated? It’s what happens on stag dos, get over it. Why should I be bringing my DS up to accept that sort of behaviour is ok, and if i don’t bring him up to accept it I am treating him like a snowflake.

So maybe for some what the boys did on the sleepover isn’t worth all the hand wringing, but what I find disturbing are the PP saying that they must expect much worse behaviour when the boys are older. Surely we are all civilised enough to recognise that these ‘initiation’ type ceremonies are just another form of bullying, and should not be encouraged or accepted.

Exactly ineedaholiday just because these things do still happen on stag dos etc doesn't mean we should continue the tradition.
An example that may be more 'accepted' is the old school public boys schools. Back then boys were weak for having feelings. It changed. Now they can have excellent pastoral care. Boys no longer think bullying and victimisation is part of growing up and 'character building'.

And I'm certainly not raising ds as a snowflake. I tell him many times he can't control others actions. But I tell him he can control his reaction to it. That his actions subsequent to events will create the best outcome for him. Teach him to be an independent thinker. Teach him to walk away and/or tell a trusted adult.
He knows he doesn't have to accept some things but also knows that during things like a footy game there will be kicks to shins (deliberately or otherwise!) and sometimes you have to accept inevitable consequences you may not like.

But NEVER that he has to accept he has no autonomy over his own body.

I don't think the boys that drew on their mates need to be hung drawn and quartered! But totally agree with OP they need to know in no uncertain terms it was unacceptable.

When DS was at Primary School, there was an incident in the playground where he was held down by 2 boys whilst another boy kicked him hard in the privates

The mother of the boy who kicked DS did have the good grace to apologise for his behaviour, but then said at the end "boys will be boys, what can you do"!. I hate that phrase, it is just an excuse for bad behaviour and is never allowed to be uttered or accepted in this house.

Now we challenge the culture of altering someone's appearance without consent

Some of you are bloody bonkers.

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill...it’s a bit of pen on a face not being doused in acid or tarred and feathered

It was mainly make-up it happened with when I was a teen...I got lipsticked only once then made sure I was never the first to fall asleep again. I felt stupid and embarrassed when it happened to me but still pissed myself laughing when we did it to someone else.

People don’t generally have sleepovers with their actual bullies...those at a sleepover IME are generally friends/equals. I don’t think bullying is even relevant in lots of cases let alone assault.

Well I have had a long conversation with my friend who's a lawyer for CPS this evening about this thread.

She said all those who think it's totally acceptable are bonkers and creating the young people they have to deal with on a daily basis.

She did say that no - something like this wouldn't make court. But it is assault. And it's the not taking this sort of thing seriously that means she's dealing with young people with their whole lives ahead of them facing convictions for offences they thought were ok to carry out.
And that just because someone doesn't feel assaulted doesn't mean they weren't.
She said things like the recent up skirting have come from boys who think it's ok because "they didn't touch them". And that when they speak to them they genuinely think the girl is over reacting because it was a prank. And they have a number of young people who believe their behaviour was banter (or "bants" as they call it).

She said the issue isn't that kids are snowflakes. It's that people think those who report things are snowflakes and have no right to feel assaulted or violated.

In some ways it makes it worse, that this was done by supposed friends, @IAmAPersonToo. These boys trusted their friends not to do something nasty to themwhilst they were asleep - now they know their friends will play nasty, lasting pranks on them - the trust is dented, if not broken.

Wow, youarenotkiddingme, you have a friend who thinks we're bonkers. Please allow me to re-consider my position immediately.

No one asked you to reconsider. Just saying that someone who is actually employed to deal with things like this thinks it's worrying there are still people who don't take things like consent seriously and that they don't realise the future consequences it could lead to.

It's just another opinion from another viewpoint.

I got lipsticked only once then made sure I was never the first to fall asleep again
You shouldn't have to be on your guard around your friends.

I literally said to my kids only last weekend that I was pleased we had a home where one of their friends could fall asleep and wake up covered in a duvet not marker pen.

“I got lipsticked only once then made sure I was never the first to fall asleep again”

And that was after the artwork was done with something that easily comes off. How would you have felt if you had to go out and about in public for two days with the drawing still on your face?

I think that tying rape and molestation, kicks in the privates and bullying, to friends who drew a mustache on other friends is ott.

At what point will we need written permission to have a physical touch of any sort?

This wasn't sexual touching. It wasn't adult doing something to a child.

As far as CPS is concerned. My ds was bullied by teachers bc of his dyslexia and nobody cared.

My dc have full knowledge of boundaries. They also have no sense that a marker moustache is a precursor to sexual assault or workplace sexual harassment.

Until there is practical and common sense societal rules in place, the true aggressors will continue to get away with bullying and assault.

SheSaidNoFuckThat

"Did anyone ask the boys that were drawn on if it would have been funny if it had not been them drawn on? I have teenage boys, this is pretty standard stuff between them and their friends tbh"

This.

I don't think it's a pre cursor to sexual assault. but it can be a pre cursor to not developing a healthy relationship with boundaries. Or understanding.

There is a reason tattoo artists don't tattoo someone known to be under the influence.

Sleep, alcohol and drugs are all impaired states of consciousness - when someone can't give informed consent.

I get sometimes teens make pacts that the first to fall asleep will get drawn on. All agree. It happens.
But you've made a conscious decision to stay knowing that may happen.

And permanent marker is not something that wipes off.

I understand where people who don't think it's a big deal are coming from. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea or that consent boundaries haven't been crossed etc. Or that because some will find it funny it's is funny.

And doesn't mean that we shouldn't at least try and raise children to understand boundaries around consent Vs a prank because they may play 'a prank' in the wrong person one day or one that has severe consequences.