DH thinks we're going to get arrested in Dubai

[willyougobacktobed]

Going to Dubai next week for Easter on a mini break with DH. As a tactile couple who enjoys a couple of drinks with dinner he's getting really anxious that we're going to get arrested if we a) unthinkingly give each other a peck on the cheek or b) share a bottle of wine and have a giggle.

He has googled their strict laws and legal systems LOTS.

I think he's BU, his worries and mithering are making me not look as forward to a holiday I've saved hard for as much as I otherwise would.

Are we going to get arrested?!

Yes Claire that’s a fair enough summary of the difference for our purposes here I think. That’s why I think any vague statement like ‘it’s a personal choice’ has to be unpacked a bit ( annoying term, sorry) to get to what the person really means

I live in Dubai and have done for the last 7years. 4 of them unmarried. Ask me anything you like and feel free to message me direct if you'd prefer

Wouldn't go to Dubai if you paid me! Disgusting place. Ridiculous in your face wealth on the back of slavery!

We’ve got quite far away from the original topic of the OP!
Ellen, actually even scholars disagree about the interpretation of some verses. We can’t necessarily say one is more correct than the others.

It’s not ‘a shame’ that most Muslims don’t take religious knowledge from unqualified people. You wouldn’t entrust the building of a new hospital to someone who had read ‘Architecture for dummies’

I am amazed at breeze's arrogance and bigotry, I really am.

Ellen, actually even scholars disagree about the interpretation of some verses. We can’t necessarily say one is more correct than the others.

Of course they can't agree. That's the nature of interpretation. It's loose and prone to variation and bias in the teller. That is what creates schisms and sects and branches. And yet you still say:

Nobody can come along in the 20th century and claim to have a superior method of interpreting the Qur’an. It just doesn’t work like that.

That is, indeed, astounding arrogance. Who are you to say one person's interpretation is the last word on the matter, but another's is not even valid or worthy of equal consideration?

breeze44

So it can't be someone who doesn't speak Arabic, it can't be a modern scholar - no matter how reputable, it therefore can't be a woman.

I’m asking you for classical scholars who have said this

So what you are saying is there can be no modern interpretations of Islam. Islam can not move forward you want it to stay as a religion of the Middle Ages.

You are looking at an extremely limited view of Islam, and within your prescriptions you are correct.

However, there is a world of modern interpretations and valid academic debate. Skilled and talented Islamic theologians who you are dismissing totally as they do not agree with you.

I am afraid your limited and limiting view of Islam does a massive disservice to you, your religion and your co religionists. Do not present yourself as the voice of reasoned Islam you are the sad voice of the past restricting growth and belief. Such a shame.

Women can be Islamic scholars. Islam does not go forward or back.
The academics you are talking about are not using correct methodology. Nothing to do with whether they agree with me or not. Such people have almost no voice in Arab Muslim countries.
You are distorting our religion and trying to rewrite our history

Ok chicken if my posts are so offensive to you I certainly won’t impose them on you any longer. It’s interesting how many posters are happy to talk ABOUT Muslim women as if they care, but when they talk TO a Muslim woman are full of scorn because their preconceptions are not reflected. I came to give a different perspective but forget it. I know when I’m not wanted

well said Windows

It’s interesting how many posters are happy to talk ABOUT Muslim women as if they care, but when they talk TO a Muslim woman are full of scorn because their preconceptions are not reflected.

I always go into these discussions hoping to learn something and take something away from the discussion to think about that will make me a more rounded and tolerant person with a better understanding. I've really welcomed the chance to speak with a Muslim woman rather than about them, so for that breeze, thank you.

But far from not reflecting all my preconceptions, unfortunately you have reflected them. That's the problem.

But in traditional Muslim countries the system is different. Men and women are segregated in private spaces. A man is not allowed to be alone with a woman he is not related to. Women generally don't go out at night. When they go out, they only do so to safe, busy public places or in groups. When they travel they are accompanied by a male relative. There is no dating or relationships before marriage.

So in those kind of conditions, it's very difficult for a rapist to get a chance as there are always people around.

It's a good job men never rape women they're married or related to, otherwise your claim would be laughable.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Also there are various kind of muslim just like there are withint Christianity different kinds and within all the various kinds plenty of Christians or Muslism believe their own brand is right and others are wrong.

I just think it's a pity that more British muslims are covering their head than used to when it is not a religious requirement so they might as well not bother with it.

Such scholars have no voice in Arab Muslim countries because the faith is ordained by the Government. Deviations from that view are silenced and in some cases, people murdered.

but when they talk TO a Muslim woman are full of scorn because their preconceptions are not reflected

I talk to Muslim women a lot. My preconceptions of Muslim women is that they are modern and forward thinking often struggling to combine faith and society's misconceptions about them.

I do have an issue with 'village islam' and the way it is used to control women.

You say you only want to engage with 'classical Islamic scholars' and reject modern Islamic scholars and then state that women can be scholars. How many classical female scholars are their in Islam?

I think the fact that you can not cope with a critical analysis of some aspects of your religion and choose to leave the debate is entirely in line with your arguments. Any new or modern ideas are rejected and regimes refuse to engage with them.

There are a number of modern interpretations of Islam which can invigorate and inform debate, you reject these out of hand. You reject posters comments out of hand and choose to leave.

And here we are back in Dubai with the government refusing to engage with any criticism and a women commenting on a man on social media needs to be arrested. Cultural refusal to accept criticism leads to abuse and abuses. This has nothing to do with the beautiful religion that is Islam.

I do not reject modern scholars. I find no use in the work of writers who do not have enough knowledge or enough understanding of methodology for the task they have set themselves.
There have been women scholars in every generation and women in prominent positions. The early Muslims used to go to A’isha (may Allah be pleased with her) the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to learn about the Sunnah. She was one of the most prolific narrators of ahadith. One of the most prestigious Islamic universities was founded by a woman.
I am leaving not because of being unable to cope with critical analysis. I have actually researched book length responses to criticism on many issues.
Rather, I am frustrated with the lack of courtesy from some posters with constant accusations of bigotry, arrogance, extremism and the impression that my mere presence on this forum is offensive to some.
I don’t see the value of continuing the discussion under those conditions.

This is the second thread you've stormed off in a huff from. And you accuse other people of not accepting that other people have different views.

am frustrated with the lack of courtesy from some posters with constant accusations of bigotry, arrogance, extremism and the impression that my mere presence on this forum is offensive to some

If this is happening please report the posts and reference in discussions. I have not seen any posts to this effect.

It would seem you do not reject modern scholars as long as they work in a classical style and agree with classical interpretations. You do refuse to accept or even engage with modern interpretations, methodologies and ideas.

I'm not a big fan of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown but she is an Oxford educated philosopher who is a practicing Muslim and has made some interesting points in relation to the modern practice of Islam. She was dismissed out of hand as were all the references and comments that she made.

If you aren't moving you are stagnating and that can only damage and harm the intellectual life of any belief.

Quite happy to never go to Dubai, ever. For a myriad of different reasons. Many already listed.

This is just ONE of the many reasons to not live in Dubai...

This woman faces 2 years in prison there for saying (on facebook) that her ex husband's new wife looks like a horse.

2 years in prison for an innocuous comment on facebook!

She said it several years ago, and her ex died recently. She went to Dubai for his funeral, and was instantly arrested for the comment.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47847740

Seriously, it's beyond me how anyone would want to live there......... Especially a woman! If it was rent free, I would never live there.

I bet if a MAN, and he made comments like this on facebook, nothing would have been done. Different rules for them you see......

As some posters have said, many cosied up, and sheltered little ex-pats live in a bubble of oblivion. The denial on here (from some) is earth shattering!

Having lived in Dubai as an expat, we had a few near misses.

I will not visit Dubai now, even flying Emirates and stopping over puts me on edge. I vow not to fly Emirates again. You try to stay under the radar, but actually you have no clue whether you are on the radar at all, for any reason.

Breeze, we are just disagreeing with over Islamic requirements but that's fine - people have different views. The muslim I know best doesn't cover her head and never has. That doesn't make her a worse or a lesser muslim in my view and I don't think the Koran requires it. You take a different view. That's fine too.

Breeze ... I think you prove my point that abuse within religion is only possible because so many women allow it ... there is an air superiority in your posts .. this is what indoctrination does ... you cannot think for your self ... though you were born with a mind and body of your own ... to deviate is to be accused of not being a Muslim ... you and zealots like you decide do you ? You need to open your mind ... and more importantly your heart .... I get why you think the way you do but I am left saddened by your out look..

Breeze-‘you state that all Muslims believe their purpose in life is .....’

But you can’t speak for all Muslims any more than I can speak for all women just because I am one.... many I imagine would not open up to you about how they truly feel or what they truly want to be or try and experience .... because you would judge them as being a lesser Muslim... I imagine they sense it before you even make eye contact or open your mouth to greet them...

As an antidote to the headlines in the UK, from the Gulf News:
www.thenational.ae/uae/british-woman-arrested-in-dubai-abused-widow-willing-to-withdraw-complaint-against-laleh-shahravesh-1.846612
Last summer's story about the British dentist having been arrested for having had a glass of wine on an Emirates flight, as narrated by British newspapers, was completely misleading if you actually were looking for facts, rather than fake news.