DH thinks we're going to get arrested in Dubai

[willyougobacktobed]

Going to Dubai next week for Easter on a mini break with DH. As a tactile couple who enjoys a couple of drinks with dinner he's getting really anxious that we're going to get arrested if we a) unthinkingly give each other a peck on the cheek or b) share a bottle of wine and have a giggle.

He has googled their strict laws and legal systems LOTS.

I think he's BU, his worries and mithering are making me not look as forward to a holiday I've saved hard for as much as I otherwise would.

Are we going to get arrested?!

Ellen I don’t have a tv license so I can’t listen to the show you mentioned but I think many women mentioning personal choice want to emphasise that no one is forcing them. I find it quite patronising that you think so many Muslim women are not well-informed. No-one put pressure on me to wear hijab, in fact most of my friends at the time didn’t wear it. I have read extensively on Islamic law, interpretation of the Qur’an, and other Islamic subjects. I am very well informed about the religious requirements and I have never come across any reputable scholar arguing that hijab is not required

I’m shocked that we’re genuinely being expected to throw out more than a thousand years of quality scholarship from those who have undergone rigorous training and study in all of the relevant disciplines, in favour of some kind of sketchy interpretation based on spurious arguments. Very interested to hear what credentials Xenia has to be able to give such an interpretation.

There is considerable discussion about the wearing of the hijab. The fact that the discussion is contentious clearly indicates it is not clear in the writings and has a strong cultural aspect.

To deny the cultural collusion relating to the wearing of hijab is very strange.

I actually fully support a woman's right to wear the hijab and I find the feminist arguments for wearing it very interesting. It is much discussed within Islam and I have had many interesting discussions with Muslim friends about their decisions.

It is not clear cut and the fact that some posters have never come across Islamic arguments for choosing not to wear it suggests a limited reading list.

If it's an absolute religious requirement and they want to be a seen as a good Muslim then surely that is enforcement? Wear it or be judged as a bad Muslim. If only by the Quran and the imams who interpret it that way, if not by their fathers/husbands/community.

To say that they are not forced and then to assert that it's a religious requirement, well those two things are clearly at odds with one another, surely?

I don't think I said Muslim women were not well informed.

No it suggests a reading list from within the correct Islamic methodology. Who are the participants in this discussion that is apparently taking place around hijab?

Ellen I mean that they’re not forced in the sense of their family members saying for example ‘you’re not going out without hijab’.
But all Muslims believe that our purpose in life is to worship Allah, and that includes fulfilling all of our religious obligations.
So women saying it’s a personal choice often mean that they as an individual are the one making the choice to commit to their religious obligations, rather than suggesting that the actual ruling within Islam is that it is left to the individual’s choice.

If you genuinely have never encountered Muslim women discussing this issue then Refusing the Veil by Yasmin Alibhai- Brown is a good place to start.

She isn't an Islamic scholar but her work is well referenced.

I said I hadn’t come across any reputable scholar saying that hijab is not obligatory, although what you said is true for me too, as even the women I know who don’t wear hijab acknowledge that it is obligatory and support those who do wear it.
The work of the lady that you mentioned is totally irrelevant - she has degrees in English literature and Philosophy. I can’t find any mention of whether she speaks Arabic or not, but in either case she has no qualifications for interpreting the Qur’an or giving her opinion on Islamic rulings.
The idea that views based on such works would gain significant support in Arab Muslim countries is ludicrous.

It’s not about being able to cite references, it’s about having the qualifications and training to allow you to interpret the texts. Otherwise you may as well ask a donkey for his opinion.

So women saying it’s a personal choice often mean that they as an individual are the one making the choice to commit to their religious obligations

But you don't make a choice to commit to obligations. That's why they are obligations. If I ignore my obligations I am negligent. Negligence is generally considered a bad thing.

The flip side of 'making the choice to commit to your obligations' is making the choice to ignore them. But that would make you a non-practising Muslim. A Muslim in name/culture alone.

Eating only Halal food is a religious obligation. If you choose not to commit to that obligation then you are not a practising Muslim.

But all Muslims believe that our purpose in life is to worship Allah, and that includes fulfilling all of our religious obligations.

So by your definition, a woman who chooses not to wear hijab or something similar is not a practising Muslim. She's someone who neglects her obligations.

So when women say 'it's my personal choice to wear hijab' what they really mean is 'It's personal choice to be a practising Muslim as opposed to a negligent, non-practising one.'

Have I got it?

And as you will know breeze family members are often advised to gently persuade women to wear hijab.

The idea that views based on such works would gain significant support in Arab Muslim countries is ludicrous

I know it's a real shame isn't it?

I said her work was a starting point she references many Islamic scholars who agree with her interpretation. Her book develops several arguments.

So what you are saying is unless you can speak Arabic you can have no valid interpretation of the Quran? No opinion worth discussing? So you are effectively denying many, many Muslims any opportunity to engage intellectually with their religion. Again, that's a real shame isn't it?

Seeing as you are unable to find any scholars who support a woman's right to choose if she wears the hijab I have done a simple google search and found this article:

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/junaid-jahangir/islam-wearing-hijabb14046520.html

It's from HuffPost, so a bit light, but it references 5 high profile Muslim scholars. If a 2 minute google can find a number of references I remain baffled as to how you have never come across this argument before breeze44.

it’s about having the qualifications and training to allow you to interpret the texts

So someone with a masters in Philosophy from Oxford isn't able to interpret texts? She has no training and has not got the appropriate qualifications and you may as well as a donkey?

Can you even hear yourself?

Ellen she might be fulfilling other obligations but neglecting that one. I wouldn’t say she’s not a practising Muslim as she would still be praying, fasting etc.

So what you are saying is unless you can speak Arabic you can have no valid interpretation of the Quran?

I find it bizarre that millions of people across the world are expected to adhere to a religion, the details of which they cannot read or understand, in their own holy book and are considered unqualified to attempt to interpret, even if they could read it. How wrong is that?

So it's not that ALL Muslims believe that their purpose in life is to fulfil ALL of their religious obligations then? Just some.

The Qur’an is in Arabic, so anyone who cannot speak Arabic by definition cannot interpret a text in a language they can’t speak

Yes I think we get that breeze.

I think that's what we call having 'blind faith' then. You can't read it and you are wholly reliant on others to interpret it for you. Even if you can read Arabic or you read a translated copy, you are STILL not capable of deciphering meaning without a learned scholarly man to help you.

I HAVE come across the argument, many times, but not by any reputable scholar. Anyone with even a small amount of Islamic knowledge would dismiss such arguments instantly. It has no weight, no impact.
Philosophy is not a relevant discipline for interpreting Islamic texts. You need to understand issues like the linguistic aspects, abrogation, the context in which each verse was revealed.
If this writer does not have a solid background in the history of Islamic fiqh, then she is not competent to assess scholarly opinions and situate them in their context.

Your link doesn’t work windows.

Ellen they believe that their purpose in life is to worship Allah and that they have to fulfill all their obligations but they also have self awareness that they may be weak in some areas. All of us sin, we’re not perfect but we have to keep trying to improve

Although to be fair, plenty of people (me included) need a learned scholar to decipher meaning in the bible. I know that there are many ways that so many things in the bible can be interpreted. That's the joke of it. Who knows whose interpretation is 100% right? No-one.

Apart from breeze obviously, who knows that her interpretation of the Quran is right, because she heard it from Muslims who use the 'correct
Islamic methodology'.

I don't like cut and pasting but I think it is the only way forward.
Ok let's try this:

Jāvēd Ahmad Ghāmidī (Urduu: جاوید احمد غامدی‎) (born 1951) is a Pakistanii Muslimm* theologian, Qurann* scholar, Islamic modernistt, exegete and educationist. He is also the founding President of Al-Mawrid Institute of Islamic Sciencess and its sister organisation Danish Sara.[1] He became a member of the Council of Islamic Ideologyy* (responsible for giving legal advice on Islamicc* issues to the Pakistani Governmentt* and the country's Parliamentt) on 28 January 2006, where he remained for a couple of years.[2] He also taught Islamic studies at the Civil Services Academyy for more than a decade from 1979 to 1991.[3] He was also a student of the famous Islamic scholar and exegete, Amin Ahsan Islahii. He is running an intellectual movement similar to Wastiyya in Egyptt on the popular electronic media of Pakistann*.

So he's an accredited Islamic scholar. Yes?

Ghamidi's affiliates like Farhad Shafti have clearly mentionedd* that the khimar (veil) was neither a religious act nor did it pertain to modesty and even the Qur'an uses the word without legal connotations. Another affiliate, Moiz Amjad also arguess* that, "Islam does not make it mandatory for women to cover their heads". He succinctly states that headscarf is not part of the sharia and that donning it is a personal choice

I agree that according to your version of Islam breeze, that no woman is actually choosing to wear the hijab. How can you when not to wear it is to sin?
What you are talking about as choice, is the Biblical concept of free choice i.e. people have free will to sin or not to sin. That is not the same as a liberal concept of choice.

Ok. All Muslims are expected to learn Arabic to the best of their ability. The bare minimum is to be able to read Surat al-Fatiha (the first chapter of the Qur’an) and to be able to perform their daily prayers in Arabic.
Anyone who can should strive to learn Arabic well. Many know how to read the words aloud without knowing the meaning. Others go on to have a good level of Arabic. Of course some are native Arabs.
There are many verses in the Qur’an which are very clear. The average Muslim can read the Qur’an and understand the general meaning. However, they cannot give a definitive interpretation of the verses nor derive rulings from the Qur’an. Only a qualified scholar can do that.
Many Muslims are very much intellectually engaged with their religion. I know so many Muslims who memorise the Qur’an, listen to lectures, and attend regular classes

Windows, al-Mawrid is a reform organisation aimed at radically changing Islamic methodology. I have seen some of the work of writers associated with the movement and it is, partially at least, unacceptable. The methodology is totally flawed. I alluded to this on the thread about the school protests.
Nobody can come along in the 20th century and claim to have a superior method of interpreting the Qur’an. It just doesn’t work like that.
I’m asking you for classical scholars who have said this