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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

DH thinks we're going to get arrested in Dubai

714 replies

willyougobacktobed · 04/04/2019 18:34

Going to Dubai next week for Easter on a mini break with DH. As a tactile couple who enjoys a couple of drinks with dinner he's getting really anxious that we're going to get arrested if we a) unthinkingly give each other a peck on the cheek or b) share a bottle of wine and have a giggle.

He has googled their strict laws and legal systems LOTS.

I think he's BU, his worries and mithering are making me not look as forward to a holiday I've saved hard for as much as I otherwise would.

Are we going to get arrested?!

OP posts:
breeze44 · 06/04/2019 07:29

Grisaille, it wasn't just one event though. That guy was being made spokesman as his full-time job. That was just the latest in a long string of very dodgy practices by that particular HRO (a famous international one) including:

1)Producing reports on situations in certain countries while missing out crucial information that gives all the relevant context and background, in order to better make it fit their agenda.

2)Encouraging volunteers to get involved in campaigns in certain countries based on 'information' they had no way of verifying.

3)Failing to have any procedures in place to warn volunteers - who were often young, inexperienced and naïve - about the dangers involved in the work they were being asked to do, or to inform them about the possible impact on their future if they ever have further dealings with the countries involved.

I also know of another, smaller HRO who offered to consider cases of asylum seekers in order to represent them and give expert evidence. Then when they were sent all of the sensitive case info and personal details of the person involved, they disappeared and became uncontactable. Maybe there was an innocent explanation, but it doesn't encourage much confidence.

But apart from the dodgy practices, I fundamentally disagree with the principle of raising money in countries where there is widespread support for certain policies, and using the funds to try and push a political agenda in a country where there is little to no support for those policies. It is a form of neo-imperialism, it can cause conflict and even put people's lives at risk.

In this thread reports from human rights groups are being used to discredit the experience of others as if they were neutral and purely fact-based. They're not, they are biased, they have a political agenda. Of course, we have no way of verifying the accounts of posters on here either but they cannot be automatically dismissed as lies on the grounds that they conflict with the version given by HROs.

Wrt the tourism industry in Dubai, I wasn't suggesting they should try to develop a different type of tourism, more wondering why they couldn't have developed a different industry altogether that could be more beneficial for humankind.

The only reason I mentioned the type of tourism is because it probably causes the biggest clash of expectations. In North Africa I would sometimes see tourists coming for that kind of cultural tourism, looking around the old buildings and walled city centres, seeing the traditional crafts etc. and it's generally better, although even in non-touristy areas the amount of complaints about restrictions during Ramadan surprised me.

But obviously that's not an option for UAE so why can't they go for something other than tourism?

breeze44 · 06/04/2019 07:40

I really wish that everyone mentioning the situation of women in Muslim countries could consider the possibility that the majority of women in these countries are actually practising Muslim women, and as such they don't want or expect the same freedoms that Western women have. They don't want that lifestyle.

It's incredibly frustrating to constantly hear that Muslim women are oppressed and treated like animals when you don't even know what our aspirations are or how we want to be treated. Of course there is some oppression, just like there is in every country in the world. But we have our own ways of dealing with it. Muslim women are not just Western women somehow plonked into an alien country and wishing they could get out of it. We are active participants in our families and societies and where there are problems we want to work for change within our own religious and cultural framework.

Ellenborough · 06/04/2019 07:43

in India China and Malaysia you can touch and kiss your partner ... without concern ...

That's not strictly true about the whole of Malaysia, it's still by and large a very Muslim country with very 'traditional' values. Just because you can buy a drink in a shopping mall restaurant in Kuala Lumpur you shouldn't be naive enough to think that the whole country is the same as the UK in terms of tolerance to what are seen as debauched and immoral western habits. Well trodden tourist areas like Langkawi make allowances because they making a good living out of us and the easiest way to do that is to let us get drunk and cavort in about in our bikinis. Much like Dubai. But don't make the mistake of thinking they have an respect for us while we are doing it. And make no mistake, if you push your luck with drink, drugs or sex you will pay a very heavy price. Homosexuality is illegal in Malaysia too and they do have sharia law.

China and India still persist in the wholesale, widespread abortion and murder of baby girls and you can and frequently do get raped in India just for having the bad luck to be the only girl on a bus full of men, so frankly WHO GIVES A FUCKING SHIT if you can hold hands safely without tuts and looks of disapproval from the locals? Hmm

Ellenborough · 06/04/2019 07:47

the majority of women in these countries are actually practising Muslim women, and as such they don't want or expect the same freedoms that Western women have. They don't want that lifestyle.

Well they certainly don't expect it on the whole, but whether or not they might want it or might like to have it is another matter altogether. I don't think we should assume that they wouldn't enjoy more freedom and autonomy. That's incredibly patronising.

womandear · 06/04/2019 07:53

Dubai is a horrible place built on a slave culture - Emiratis at the top, then the western ex-pats ( who love than they can have maids and drivers and nannies that they could afford at home and ignore the fact those maids are people of colour from poorer countries) , then the ‘serving’ classes and down and down to the mistreated , underpaid labourers and workers who built the desert city. It’s beyong me how people from here can go on holidays there with a clear conscience. Racist, homophobic- awful place. In Dubai you’re fine until you’re not - so yes m, be careful.

womandear · 06/04/2019 08:06

Take your marriage certificate just in case / it’s handybto be able to prove your married. Stay away from Emiratis - get in an argument with them and you will come off worst. Nothing more than hand holding in public and don’t be drunk in public.
If you have to go that would be my advice. It’s Middle East-lite you won’t get an authentic experience of anything authentic Dubai, but some westerners seem to like that they can act like top dogs there and experience ‘luxury’ that they wouldn’t usually afford. Most people I know who’ve gone ( like myself for work) have said they wouldn’t go back. Then you have the handful who are all - OMG we can live like KINGS here and pay hardly any tax and have servants! It’s amazing.

Ellenborough · 06/04/2019 08:07

You've just described the social hierarchy of almost everywhere in the world except Western Europe woman. And even there it still happens - albeit much more subtly executed and with more rights attached.

breeze44 · 06/04/2019 08:24

Ellenborough, this: I don't think we should assume that they wouldn't enjoy more freedom and autonomy. That's incredibly patronising.

is just the other side of the coin to what's actually going on, people assuming that women ARE oppressed, which is in itself patronising. I'm not asking anyone to assume, I'm pointing out that as a Muslim woman who has mixed with other Muslim women from various different countries, I have seen and experienced a completely different reality to the one which is usually presented on here.

GucciDay · 06/04/2019 08:47

'none of the countries you list is perfect but they do not try to draw in western pounds by appealing to Types who think shopping and getting pissed on a compound types ... (of all classes)'

This with bells on. It isn't the laws and corruption in Dubai that is the issue, as stated it happens throughout the world. It's the westerners who pretend its all lovely and some kind of utopia that I find totally pathetic.

Dapplegrey · 06/04/2019 09:02

Ellenborough thank you for your interesting posts.
I knew that the Orang Utans were losing vast amounts of habitat but I hadn’t realised they were burnt alive - that adds an even more ghastly aspect.
Cuba is another place that people rave about despite its poor human rights record.

Silverstreaks · 06/04/2019 09:17

It amazes me just how many people are prepared to go to these hypocritical countries.
Stop giving them money they don't think highly big you.

ShowMeTheKittens · 06/04/2019 09:21

Well don't have drinks with dinner then And don't get giggles and grope each other. Easy answer

wait68 · 06/04/2019 10:07

Maybe the Muslim women in some if these countries, do not feel repressed as westerners may imagine. But I'm sure on the occasions when their husbands hit them, rape or divorce them by simply saying 'I divorce you' ×3, they wish they had some say in how it happens to them apart from being objects belonging to some male person.

XiCi · 06/04/2019 10:18

I really did not want to go to Dubai at first but had to on business and was so pleasantly surprised. I have to say that I felt very, very safe and respected as a woman. Far more so than in the UK. My niece got spat and and screamed SLAG in her face by a complete stranger yesterday just sitting on the train to uni in Manchester. There's a lot of aggressive misogyny here. Kuala Lumpur though was a whole different level. I wore a black kaftan to the floor but was still catcalled, shouted at and sometimes spat at the whole day. It was a horrible experience, and that was when I was with my 6ft 4 heavyweight boxer husband. Dread to think what it would have been like travelling with other girls

breeze44 · 06/04/2019 10:19

Muslim women are NOT considered to be objects belonging to a male person. They are human beings with full juridic personality. Rape is not allowed. Divorce does not have to be given 3 times. Once is enough, but the first and second divorces are revocable while the third divorce is irrevocable. There is a difference of opinion about whether three divorces can be given on one occasion. Why do you see that kind of divorce as being disadvantageous to women? The Western legal system wouldn’t prevent him from divorcing her, it would just delay the process, preventing both parties from moving on.

Italiangreyhound · 06/04/2019 10:39

Sorry OP slight de rail...

Ellenborough the reason so many are talking about Dubai is the laws relating to foreigners. Yes, lots of countries have very bad human rights records. Some may be working on this and exposure to foreign people/laws/practised may help.

I don't think we need to isolate all countries with bad human rights but to campaign on behalf of rights for all.

As you know Borneo is Malaysia, Indonesia and Bruni. I've lived in the region, not Borneo, but did visit Malaysia (and the Isle if Wight!)

Can you tell me where the FGM stats are from? Which bit of Borneo or all of it?

Yes mumsnetters do care about FGM.

Anyone wanting to know more can check out...

www.28toomany.org/

Sorry for de rail!

bert3400 · 06/04/2019 10:40

I wouldn't go to Dubai, I would be constantly worried I might break some law. Surely the whole idea of a holiday is to relax not stress about touching your husband

Ricoetbello · 06/04/2019 10:43

Theres areas in Dubai just for tourist which allows alcohol and bikinis all that

Just dont stand near a red light district by accident. They can arrest you thinking you're a prostitute and they dont have to be a police officer to arrest you.
Certain hotels dont allow men and women to drink together in the bars, so dont be surprised if your husbands into he bar and you have to stay in your room...

Italiangreyhound · 06/04/2019 10:44

breeze44 just because we non-Muslim women cannot speak for Muslim women I am not sure Muslim women now can necessarily soeak for the next generation of Muslim women and girls.

My children have so far not followed my faith (Christian). Women and girls born into Muslim families in predominsntky Muslim countries may want the same freedoms of the west and may or may not still choose to follow a religion.

Dilligaf81 · 06/04/2019 10:45

Why anyone goes to this country is beyond me. Spending money in hotels and malls that have been built on the deaths of 1000s of immigrant workers who are treated like shit. Also ignoring the human rights records, regressive laws against women and homosexuals.
You may get arrested and it may be because you've broken a law or because they don't like the look of you. Bribery is rife and I had a friend bribe a policeman to get away with a groping incident (which was holding her boyfriends hand, I think she would have been fine if they had been married).

clairemcnam · 06/04/2019 11:25

breeze I think I know the HRO you are talking about, which is my links about human rights abuses were not from that organisation but a decent one.

The idea that people are being oppressed and are happy with it, is incredibly patronising. It just reminds me of all the writers I have read who talk about how happy black slaves are and that we should not judge their life by our own lives.
The truth is in all these countries there are local people fighting oppression and wishing they had a better life.

clairemcnam · 06/04/2019 11:27

italiangreyhound Leaving the Muslim faith in many muslim countries is punishable by death. It is a serious crime. People do not have the choice to choose their religion.

I believe in secular states with freedom to practise religion.

Sheogorath · 06/04/2019 11:41

Yeah, nothing oppressive about jailing women for reporting rape.

Dumdedumdedum · 06/04/2019 11:42

Coincidentally, this came up on my newsfeed just now. www.facebook.com/khalidalameri/videos/309329339754941?sfns=mo
If you check out more of his videos, you will find the Emirati take on things like behaviour in public, pdas, alcohol, and more.

clairemcnam · 06/04/2019 11:52

But you know those Muslim women who live in oppressive countries just love being raped and beaten up.

Of course I don't think that. But that is what you are saying if you are saying these oppressive regimes are great if you have personally never heard anyone complaining about them.

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