AIBU to think that Leave voters who complain about a lack of democracy are hypocrites?

[KennDodd]

Because they completely ignore the proven illegalities around the Leave campaign that would have made void the result had the referendum been binding.

Helmet I didn't say I expected that. I said that is what I would have preferred. Facts or no facts, by your own admission, our vote was advisory not binding, so politicians, caused Brexit, not the voters. I haven't 'bleated' about sovreignty, I am just anxious that the actt of voting maintains its status and purpose.

My decision had nothing to with racism and was not influenced by UKIP

Nope it never is. I expect you are utterly shocked and bewildered by the rise in racism since the ref.

Fuck off Helmet. I know it's easier to believe all Leavers are racists, but it's just a lazy stereotype, which is getting old and makes you look very ignorant. The rise in racism is disgusting, but shock horror, racists exist in all countries, so it can't and shouldn't automatically attributted to brexit. I was a lifelong Labour voter until recently. I have never, nor will I ever vote Tory or Ukip

Oh and stick your PA up your psuedo liberal arse ttoo.

I don't believe all Leave voters are racist or stupid or whatever. I do believe that if you lie down with dogs you get up with fleas.

Sorry but why would a tory government want to investigate the causes of the vote to leave and then rectify things ? They know full well that many used it as a protest against austerity, underinvestmentment and dismantling of the public services they so despise. Why would they admit their very own policies were the cause of public discontent. They are also well aware that millions are happy to vote for their policies in spite of knowing the impact they have just look at UC and
the restriction of legal aid, privatisation of probation service etc.

you voted for a campaign that used racist imagery and polemic and was supported by racists the country over

Helmet has called no one racist. The leave campaign was racist, that poster was racist. Racists like Yaxley-Lennon did support leave.

These aren't lazy stereotypes, this is what happened. The racist elements of the leave campaign have aided and supported racism.

Lots of leave voters are not racist, but lots of leave voters were motivated by racism. Brexit and the rise of right wing extremism are linked.

Probably not as hypocritical as the remain voters who call leavers thick and racist. Most have no concept of what they were voting for or the fact that they were prioritising white Europeans over Asians and Africans in respect of immigration. Most voted to stay because they didn’t want change with very little understanding of the dynamic nature of the EU

remain voters who call leavers thick and racist

Has anybody on this thread called a leave poster racist? Or have posters correctly pointed out there were racist elements in the leave campaign, and there were.

I have had to explain some fundamental principles of British democracy to leave voters. There is a whole thread about the difference between delegates and representatives. Remain voters may not know the difference but they aren't the ones complaining.

Brexit has demonstrated how little many, many people understand about British democracy and how our constitution works.

Revoking unilaterally will provoke anger, because it will feel like the voices of those complaining the loudest are being listened to

Although, weirdly, despite winning the referendum it's the leavers who have complained loud and long about everything imaginable ever since, and only a comparatively recent thing for remainers to be listened to at all.

People who leaving will result in the poorer getting poorer....how?

Lefields, I was a JAM when I had a job. Do you remember JAMs? Those of us Just About Managing? I am no longer a JAM. I and my DC are now classed as living in Absolute Poverty. I am poorer because of the Conservative Party. I am poorer because of Brexit.

Can I get any poorer than Absolute Poverty? Well, according to most Leavers, including yourself Lefields I'm going to, because There is going to be a shit storm for a while. Please tell me how best to weather it that doesn't involve a degree of criminality.

My thoughts are that leavers are against a second vote simply because they are fairly sure that the result would be to remain. It's nothing to do with their fears for the impact on democracy and everything to do with the likelihood that they might 'lose'.
Lose in inverted commas because after three years and how much money spent, none of us can win here at all.
I dont think either side can see the others point of view but that's less about politics than bloody mindedness in some cases and unfortunately than includes the elected people we have had to trust to make decisions on this.
I'm guilty of it myself because to me the whole thing is ludicrous-a bad idea, being carried out badly and at great cost. I don't think anyone at this point could persuade me otherwise because the evidence is too pervasive-but I'd love someone to be able to , because I remain genuinely concerned for the future.

thelastnigel

I can see a bit of the other side

And although I thought leaving still a bad idea i was 'happy' to leave with a good deal that we were told would be easy to obtain

Well its not is it

And no the government are running scared of not being able to deliver what they 'promised'

I think, like the manifesto promises i refered to earlier, that they have realised that a good brexit is undeliverable

And rather than say that they are scrabbling round for who to blame

And im telling you right now...that it will be the publics fault. They will blame people who voted remain first and then they will blame those who voted leave

My thoughts are that leavers are against a second vote simply because they are fairly sure that the result would be to remain

Interesting. I am a remainer and I fear a second vote in case it shows 'leave' more strongly! I am not convinced that there is more support now for remain than there was 2 years ago. Although my caveat would be that I live in a 70% leave area anyway so it could be what is around me, I guess. I think a second vote which said 'remain, leave with no deal, leave with x deal or leave with y deal' would be clearer and make more sense (but would almost certainly return a remain vote as a majority).

I’m a devout remainer and I’m not sure about a second referendum. In order to provide any direction it would have to show a strong preference for side or the other. The polls don’t suggest it would.

If remain won by a small margin (quite likely) I don’t see how that gets us anywhere. Leavers would be understandably pissed off if the second ref takes precidence.

This is why a lot of people don't like to share how they voted

people share how they voted all over social media. they dont want to share their thought processes though.

on this thread - on ALL the threads, brexiteers have come on and said stuff like 'the eu is shafting the uk' or 'i believe in five years all will be fine' or 'its democracy'. they very happily give their opinion but if you ask them to clarify, explain or, god forbid, provide evidence, for their opinions they either wont or they cant.

i wouldnt say thats 'thick' but yeah its an interesting phenomena and not like any discussions ive had before. i think its quite problematic really....

I’m a little surprised TFBundy that your husband couldn’t see beyond his own (admittedly annoying) niche issue to the wider implications of leaving the EU for the NHS and the country as a whole. But that’s by the by.

I’m not sure it’s about intelligence per se (and intelligence comes in lots of different forms).

We all vote with our gut and post rationalise afterwards. The leave contingent find themselves in a tricky position because while there were powerful emotional drivers to leave, but almost nothing in the way of rational justification.

Thus they find themselves scrabbling around for things like ‘soverignty’ (which doesn’t hold up to any scrutiny).

The astonishing thing is that Cameron clearly had no idea that this groundswell of dissatisfaction existed when he called the vote.

And I totally agree with the rest of your post tsbundy particularly the last line.

DailyMailSucksWails
nobody has lost their job due to brexit
Just the 900 EMA jobs, then.

At least 75% of EMA staff have relocated to the Netherlands (with a generous relocation package funded by the EU and the Dutch Government).

Staff at the EMA are drawn from all the 28 member states; 60 out of the 900 employees were UK citizens and they were eligible to relocate to the Netherlands as well, although I believe that around 100 employees (of all nationalities) were on short term contracts, which Dutch employment laws don't allow, and so they couldn't relocate - their contracts may have ended naturally anyway.

The UK's own, " Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA)" will need extra staff now - surely?

Apologies - I realise my error (no coffee this morning) - the 60 UK employees will be able to apply for jobs with the UK's MHRA - who will need extra staff.

And those staff relocated to the Netherlands don't drink or rest or engage in anyway with local businesses and employers? Do you seriously suggest that jobs being moved from one place to another has no impact on the local economy that has lost those residents?

"but there is also a lack of understanding by remainers (including me) of the circumstances that drove many to cast a "fuck the establishment" vote in the referendum."

If you voted to "fuck the establishment" by voting leave you used your vote incorrectly.

Like a lot of leavers you voted for your own particular niche issue, whether its actually connected to leaving the EU or will be made better by it, is a different matter.