Was Waitrose being U?

[Settlethewreckage]

Just returned from Waitrose after having been refused a bottle of wine. DH (30) and I (27) wanted to celebrate our wedding anniversary by buying a fancy bottle of wine, so we went to Waitrose and picked one (along with some other stuff). At the till DH gets asked for ID, no problem. Cashier then asks me for mine, which I didn't have on me. So now we can't have this bottle of wine, because he can't confirm my age.

I'm angry. The manager said it made sense to ask us both as we 'look a similar age'. Yet they know DH is 30! To make matters worse, DH is now not able to buy alcohol at that store today and tomorrow because 'they know we are together'.

AIBU to think that this was ridiculous? Yes, I could have gone and fetched my ID from home, but by then I was already fuming, so I left the stuff and went to Sainsbury's.

Surely the law is that an underage person cannot buy the alcohol, not that they cannot drink it? This proxy sale stuff makes no sense because all children over 5 can by law drink alcohol at home so these teens are not underage in that regard?

So if someone bought your 15 year old alcohol to sit in the park then you'd be fine with it because they're over 5?

There is no law being broken though. TheWaiting can go home and give the wine to her teen. This is not actually illegal.

If it turned out to be a proxy sale then the law is being broken. Regardless of law if it's against company policy you can still be in trouble. Presumably your employer imposes rules or policies on you that aren't necessarily laws but you could still face disciplinary sanctions if you broke them?

LittleChristmasMouse, I’m not saying it’s the cashier’s fault but from a legal point of view they company don’t have a leg to stand on if they fire someone for breaking company rules if those rules aren’t set out clearly.

So if someone bought your 15 year old alcohol to sit in the park then you'd be fine with it because they're over 5?

I doubt my 15yr old would be stood helping them pack. If he was minded to ask an adult to buy him a £15 bottle of Rioja then he’d likely wait outside to collect it so admit to arouse suspicion.

To avoid arousing suspicion

So if someone bought your 15 year old alcohol to sit in the park then you'd be fine with it because they're over 5?

That's not what I was saying. I was merely pointing out that it didn't make logical sense.

Proxy sales are sales where an adult over 18 buys alcohol for a minor to drink.
It is not against the law for minors to drink.

I'm baffled by the logic that stores have a policy where you cannot buy alcohol because you think an underage person will drink it, but yet it is not illegal for said underage person to actually drink the alcohol.

I'm baffled by the logic that stores have a policy where you cannot buy alcohol because you think an underage person will drink it, but yet it is not illegal for said underage person to actually drink the alcohol.

It's not store policy though, it is the law that it's illegal to buy, or attempt to buy alcohol for someone under 18. So if the store knowingly sell to someone they believe to be buying for someone under 18 then this is illegal. Do the two laws contradict each other? Yes, but stores MUST follow them. (A bit like the law you can have sex at 16 but can't watch porn until 18).

www.drinkaware.co.uk/alcohol-facts/alcohol-and-the-law/the-law-on-alcohol-and-under-18s/

It is against the law

To sell alcohol to someone under 18 anywhere.
For an adult to buy or attempt to buy alcohol on behalf of someone under 18. (Retailers can reserve the right to refuse the sale of alcohol to an adult if they’re accompanied by a child and think the alcohol is being bought for the child.)
For someone under 18 to buy alcohol, attempt to buy alcohol or to be sold alcohol.
For someone under 18 to drink alcohol in licensed premises, except where the child is 16 or 17 years old and accompanied by an adult. In this case it is legal for them to drink, but not buy, beer, wine and cider with a table meal.
For an adult to buy alcohol for someone under 18 for consumption on licensed premises, except as above.
To give children alcohol if they are under five.

Staff were only doing their job. They have to challenge anyone who LOOKS under 25. I do hope you didn't give them an earful for simply obeying the law

I’ve worked in a shop with a challenge-25 policy. The “training” on it was just getting nagged by a power-tripping supervisor.

If you’re not 100% sure they’re over 25, ID. If they’re in a group of siblings/friends (not a parent-child age gap) ID the lot. Don’t allow A to buy the things B was refused so they can give them to B. Don’t serve someone your coworker has refused (actually like this one, stops people being undermined). Oh, and IF YOU GET SHIT WRONG YOU’RE GETTING FINED AND FIRED!!

I’ve been sworn at and threatened over alcohol and cigarettes. Always wanted to tell them they sounded like the town alchies scrapping over the last swig of White Lightning.

from a legal point of view they company don’t have a leg to stand on if they fire someone for breaking company rules if those rules aren’t set out clearly.

They are set out clearly. If it could be a proxy sale then I can't sell it.

It's not worth the hassle for a minimum wage employee to try and fight their employer over this. I understand why some cashiers just apply it to every sale.

Campaign for different licensing laws and better employment rights and then you'll be able to buy your wine without issue.

Challenge 25 is not the law, it's industry policy. Just because someone thinks someone else looks under 25, which is entirely subjective, it does not follow that the laws on alcohol and under 18s are being broken.

But what does that mean? That’s like saying, if he’s a paedophile, don’t serve him.

How can you judge it and what is considered reasonable is what I’m asking? Is it just age? Is it some arbitrary thinking that I’m more likely to buy alcohol for my 13yr old than my 9yr old? Because if I’m the sort of parent who would happily buy alcohol for my 13yr old then surely I’m irresponsible enough to buy it for my 9yr old. I’m trying to understand what the guidelines are for when cashiers challenge. That’s what I’m trying to work out.

Oh and surely a supervised ranting cannot be considered ample staff training.

We should adopt the us system ie no id then no drink. No matter what your age. Off sales and bars

So I’m wondering if every cashier refused to sell alcohol to every single customer with a child including a baby/toddler whether stores would be happy? Would they back their staff? After all they’re surely just following company policy as nobody really knows at from what age a feckless parent might start giving their child booze. I’d hope all managers and supermarkets would be happy with 1000s of harassed mothers of toddlers just leaving £100s worth of shopping out of principal.

Actually, when we lived in the US, it was a different issue as people didn’t really go to the supermarket to buy wine.

The cashier was not being unreasonable. They wete following rules. The rules can be unreasonable though.

TheWaiting, you seem weirdly angry about this. As I say, I’ve never been expected to stop (for instance) a 40 y/o parent buying a bottle of wine while their 16 y/o helps pack.

I would think that if a cashier stopped you purchasing booze because you had a 3 y/o with you then they have misinterpreted the policy, possibly due to poor training, and talking calmly to a manager about their interpretation of the policy would be good.

IME, cashiers hate IDing and refusing sales as it often ends with heaps of shopping to put back, getting sworn at and spoken to like you’re a child. No one deliberately makes more work for themselves by IDing people they don’t need to.

I had to get age validation on a bottle of FRE wine ("alcohol removed" wine) the other day.

I've just looked at their website and while it does concede that there will be some alcohol left, it's less than 0.5% "that’s roughly equivalent to the alcohol content of orange juice left unrefrigerated overnight."

So, should the shops stop selling orange juice, or fruit, to under 18s, just in case they decide to ferment them??

I get that the cashiers have to do their job and it's not worth the risk of getting it wrong, but the whole not selling when you have children with you is madness. How can it be legal for you to give your child alcohol but for it to be illegal for a shop to to sell it to you if they think you're going to give it to them??

I envisage a time of adults having to sign disclaimers when they're buying alcohol with children present, to confirm they're not intending on letting their child drink it!

TheWaiting

I don't know how they decide who to discipline.

We are told that proxy sales are illegal and given the appropriate piece of legislation to read. We then have to apply our judgement.

Same as asking for ID - what does an 18 year old look like, or a 25 year old? Hence the op.

It's open to interpretation but if you get it wrong you will be in trouble. Some people will take chances and probably get away with it. Others won't take any chance and I understand why. If they are desperate to keep their job I can understand them not risking it.

Not angry, more annoyed at the ridiculous vagueness and randomness of it all. That every Friday night I’ll pick up a bottle of wine with my weekly shop, which I do after picking up my 15yr old child from school, and proceed to the checkout not knowing if this will be a week that I’m allowed my wine or not.
Do my question still stands. What is considered reasonable? At what age can a parent no longer take their child on the weekly shop if they want to buy a bottle of wine?

Waitrse is never unreasonable! But if you asked me about Tesco.....

We were on hols in the US a few years ago, rented house, and went to do some grocery shopping with our (18 & 19 year old) kids and they didn't want to sell us alcohol in case we gave any to the kids!

I think this Challenge 25 initiative is going a bit far, and the shops are scared nowadays. I don't think you're being unreasonable to be a bit miffed.

Not angry, more annoyed at the ridiculous vagueness and randomness of it all.

Yes exactly. Now try and apply it at work and face a barrage of abuse from customers who aren't happy because you applied it and then disciplinary action from managers who aren't happy because you didn't apply it on another occasion.

@TheWaiting

So what are the general guidelines given to staff re teenage children?
Flopsy, you say maybe my teen looks slightly older than 15. Well, I’d def say he looks 15-17 so yes, absolutely he doesn’t look old enough to be buying alcohol. Plus he’s clearly wearing school sports kit.

In our training we are just taught about proxy sales and the signs to look out for. I was never told to refuse sale to an adult with a teenager doing a weekly shop but was taught things to look out for. Such as seeing the teenager choosing alcohol with the adult or the adult only getting alcohol and a small selection of things and paying in change.

But I’m still not understanding why I’ve been refused wine as part of a big weekly shop just because he’s with me. And why not every week? I’m trying to understand what prompts them to think the wine is for him. Are some staff just always refusing customers with a teen? Would I be stopped as frequently with teenage DD? Honestly?

You were refused because the cashier was just being careful. It's not worth risking their job. Like I said we get mystery shoppers who come in and will make it obvious that the teenager is choosing alcohol as part of a weekly shop and then come to the till. If the staff fail to notice that they'll get in trouble. Like I said I wouldn't have refused you but they're just doing their job. I'm not sure your child's sex makes a difference, it certainly wouldn't to me.

Last question. Would staff really be prosecuted for selling a bottle of wine as part of a £200 shop to a 50yr old woman simply because she has a teenage boy with her? Yes. A member of staff in my store recently received disciplinary action for failing to spot a proxy sale.

Is it not about making a reasonable assumption? I get the think 25 for someone actually buying booze but could a cashier not argue that the person purchasing was clearly of age and doing a weekly shop that included 1 x £15 bottle of wine? And if they’re not allowed to exercise judgement, why am I not stopped every week? At what age are they told to act for ID? 10? 14? 18?

We are taught to exercise our judgement but my judgement can be completely different to another member of staff so some staff are over careful just incase, especially if they're not confident trying to assume somebody's age or the situation, it might be easier for them to just ID everyone in every situation.

Again, it’s not the think 25 thing I have an issue with it’s the parent shopping with their child. I’m just not understanding if I’m being told that if it’s a mystery shopper checking up on the store, could they prosecute a cashier for selling wine to a mother with a 10yr old with them? Could the cashier not argue that they thought it highly unlikely that the mother would be giving said 10yr old wine or would they still lose their job?

Yes they absolutely could argue that it's clearly a mother just doing their weekly shop but also if the child is 11 but looks 17 it might be more likely that the alcohol could be for him. I don't think it's worth risking their job over and it's easier for them to refuse the sale or ID them.

When I was younger and reached around 14/15 my mum was regularly refused alcohol when doing the weekly shop if I was with her. It was annoying but I used to wait in the car or leave the shop when she went to pay. Or just stay at home.

We were taught certain things to look out for - what the customer was buying, did they pay in a lot of change, did the child point it out, was there a conversation, was someone refused the same product in a certain time frame. A child with an adult wouldn't have automatically triggered BUT we did have the occasional 16 year old hand their parent the money and ask them to get a bottle of cider. Or we refused someone with no ID and then watched them walk outside and hand the money over to someone who then came in for the same product. It's also for all age restricted products so we had to refuse a scratchcard when a 6/7 year old gave their parent £2 and asked for "a number 5 scratchcard".

I've had both IDing someone, only for them to be 31and being unsure, asking for ID anyway and them being 19.

The staff are trying their best while being wary because of abuse they can suffer because of it. I've been told that customers know where I live, that they'll be waiting outside when we close, been called a "fat, speccy bitch", been sworn at in the street.

If it bothers you then write to your MP and ask that the underager person or the person buying for underagers get harsher sentences instead of it all being put on the cashier.