Second Referendum

[SovietKitsch]

Leave or remain, I think it’s about time this idea was taken seriously. See Petition below:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235138?fbclid=IwAR3XN95WOshtsO9kSWQGI5VyDL4GRG2EakaADg378AazbBs6FipEN6Ah1Ow

and leave are so dead set against it is because both sides know that remain would swing it.

People keep saying this but both remain and leave sides in parliament are voting this down, and the numbers are just as finely balanced as they were before.

Remain was supposed to win in 2016.

If there is a second referendum and leave is still the majority then we are no further forward.

There are a vast amount of shy Leavers out there!

Cats is quite correct.

Mn is London centric and still quite middle class. There are swathes of the population who are neither.

Also, every election time you can be fooled into thinking Labour are a shoo-in on social media but they are not. I’m honestly not at all convinced a second referendum won’t churn out an identical set of results. Yes, many people who were dithering between leave/remain would opt to remain through nerves, but I also think many of the ‘ditherers’ who veered towards remain last time would lean towards leave.

I’m also pretty convinced that if we did opt to stay in the EU it would not simply be the end to it. The issue would not go away.

@Windowsareforcheaters the EU is an evolution of the EEC. It's a fact not something you believe in or not.

Continually

Agree. I've read many times on here that a poster will say 'I don't know any leavers.'

But they are out there, obviously!

If you say on here that you voted Leave, chances are you'll get the same old tropes of uneducated, racist etc, etc and then hectored to provide concise reasons behind your vote.

Is it any wonder so many are shy?

MissEliza

What is being disputed is that the 75 referendum was a referendum on the EU, an entity that didn't exist until 93. Not that the EC/EEC became the EU.

Ee thought we were divided in 2016, it has only got worse :(

imagine if two year's had been spent in constructive cross party talks!!

Sadly ruled out by the Maybot who refused to start cross-curricular talks.

It makes me laugh whenever anyone talks about the "Remain" parliament. The Brexiters had every chance to take control of the situation and chose not to. They all pulled out of the leadership contest. Several of them were promoted to cabinet positions where they achieved exactly nothing (Liam Fox) or performed so badly they had to resign (Boris Johnson nearly managed to increase Nazanon Ratcliffe's jail term FFS). Dominic Raab negotiated a deal when he was Brexiters secretary then resigned because he didn't like the deal then voted for the deal yesterday!

Parliament will do everything to avoid no-deal because they know it would be such a shit-show that nobody will ever vote against for anybody that endorsed it. The only ones who will continue to support it are those like JRM who are independently wealthy enough to manage just fine without their MPs salary.

There were never any upsides to Brexiters. The Leave campaign knew this and never thought they would win. The only achievable Brexit would be CU plus Single Market which could have been negotiated very simply.

*No second referendum, too many people vote with their emotions instead of their brains and I say that as a reluctant remainer. I have many issues with the EU (I’m not a fan of freedom of movement and wish it was an economic and partially political relationship only or if FoM has to happen it’s for highly skilled required labour only) but understand a marriage of 28 countries will have difficulties. We are stronger together against genuine wolves such as Russia and the US.

Just full on revoke*

THIS, although my default position on the EU pre-referendum was "remain but reform" I voted Leave. I honestly did not expect leave to win. A lot of people I've spoken to also felt the same way.

Or we could have a further referendum, with AV, giving all the options (May's Deal, the alternative deal everyone says is there except parliament and the EU, No Deal, Remain as is, Remain with reforms)

Remain with reforms would expect us to both agree what those reforms are as a nation and to have the EU sign up to them. I genuinely think unicorns are more likely.

Just revoke and forget this whole sorry mess

I thought it was ref to join ECC not remain in it?

Apparently we are worth at least 10 maybe more of the countries in the EU.
Nearly everything we do is of same standard or better.

Why are people so desperate too be tied to minnows.

It's more sensible for the land block too have links if that's what they want. But even then..

So dippy, corybn storming out of meetings because chukka is there is down to the may not?
Slithering turn tail corybn whose only passion in politics has ever been disruption.

If Frank field was labour pm... I'm sure we would be through now

Bornfreebutinchains

It was to remain part of the EC with the main reference being the EEC or common market. But it wasn't sold entirely on being about trade, but on the well-being and safety of those that had joined.

But whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government’s purpose derives, above all, from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can and indeed must — play our full part in it.”

Prime Minister Harold Wilson, 2 May 1967. Source: Hansard

It was clear the EEC was going to develop into a political union as early as 1967. By 1975 the language was clearer.

The community which we are joining is far more than a common market. It is a community in the true sense of that term. It is concerned not only with the establishment of free trade, economic and monetary union and other major economic issues, important though these are but also as the Paris Summit Meeting has demonstrated, with social issues which affect us all  environmental questions, working conditions in industry, consumer protection, aid to development areas and vocational training

Source: Illustrated London News.
Prime Minister Edward Heath, December 1972

Don't know why there is a strike through in my previous post.

It was clear before we joined that the EEC would be more than a trade area. The EU was predicted before we joined and again when we chose to stay in the first referendum.

*So dippy, corybn storming out of meetings because chukka is there is down to the may not?"

Corbyn's an idiot but that doesn't change the fact that cross-party talks should have been the norm from the beginning of the process.

I would like one but it is not going to happen. I think the focus should be on trying to get a customs union, which probably means no backstop.

The Brexiters had every chance to take control of the situation and chose not to. They all pulled out of the leadership contest.

They pulled out because they realised that leading the country through the Brexit process was a poisoned chalice and would put an end to their political ambitions for evermore.

And they were right.

Tbh, I'm not sure that anyone could have done much better. I agree that there should have been a cross-party group going through the options from an early stage, and working out what was achievable in parliament, then taking it from there, but I'm not convinced that Labour would have participated, the LDs and SNP want no part of any sort of Brexit, which leaves the DUP and Plaid Cymru.

The DUP had their input anyway, and got £1bn bung for doing so, so they're the real winners in this.

And if it wasn't for Gina Miller, the detail probably may not have had to go through parliament anyway.

I’m quite torn. I’m a remainer and can see customs union as a less damaging option but it’s just worse than what we have now with not much extra freedom. Part of me would prefer a no deal as at least that offers something different (though at huge economic risk) - scale of the risk would put me off though.

Just revoke the damn thing. It's all a complete joke. Let's just forget about it and get on with life 🤫🤫

“UnPocoLoco2

Just revoke the damn thing. It's all a complete joke. Let's just forget about it and get on with life 🤫🤫”

Damn right, pour that woman/man a large one.

I agree entirely with keepforgetting it has to be a two tier referendum and allow people to decide if remain or leave and then if leave win how we leave.

Its frankly how it should have been done the first time to allow the Government a proper mandate

The only way its going to happen is if a General Election is called and Labour (as they seem to indicate) put a second referendum as their way of dealing with Brexit. Which of course they would be mad not too as it neither alienates leaver or remain and is what the party have been pushing for.