Homophobia within the Muslim community

[thankssomuchforthat]

Please can we keep this thread calm and good natured as this is a genuine question.
I was genuinely shocked at a spokesperson for the Muslim community on GMB condemning gay people as sinful. Saying being gay is fundamentally wrong. Saying most Muslim people vehemently believe this. Is this true? Or are gay Muslims tolerated within the community? What would happen if a Muslim teenager was gay. Would the family disown them?
Genuine question. I suppose I mix in circles that are tolerant of homosexuality.
Please keep comments nice and friendly.

This is often trotted out, but it's not true. The police simply didn't give a shit then, and they don't give a shit now about those poor girls. Blaming it on perceived Islamophobia is a nice little cop-out for the police, who are institutionally racist and don't balk at arresting minorities

This didn’t age well ...

@MangoFeverDream The grooming scandal is a combination of...

1. Middle class disdain for the underclass
2. A collapse of ethnic solidarity among native Brits
3. A political culture that places "community cohesion" above justice
4. A collapse of patriarchal paternalism among British men who no longer feel a responsibility to protect young girls when doing so would risk their career.
5. The collapse of any clear moral standards with regards to sex & relationships. In the past the norm was to wait till marriage.
6. The mass presence of an ethno-centric and highly patriarchal immigrant group from the tribal regions of Pakistan/Kurdistan/Afghanistan/Somalia etc etc

“Ethnic solidarity amongst native brits” 😳😳😳 wowza that’s some scary dressing up of language right there.
Yes the issue of grooming was mismanaged throughout the late 90s and beyond - it is specifically a problem with men in certain ethnic groups (although online grooming tends to be predominantly committed by white males) and we need to continue working hard with young men to change this culture.
As for gayness in the Muslim community - it’s a big community and just like other parts of society tolerance is becoming much more the norm for many modern British Muslims.
People’s adherence to their religion is a sliding scale - so just as many Christians will be so in name only and vague nods, the same is true within Islam

@TheFuckingDogs I would actually go further than saying ethnic solidarity has collapsed.

Evidence from America shows that white left wingers are the only people who view their own racial group negatively. I think a similar thing is happening in the upper reaches of British politics, media & bureaucracy. Middle class whites have embraced ideas which actually hurt their kith and kin.

twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1198832533242183686/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1198832533242183686&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mixedmartialarts.com%2Fforums%2FOtherGround%2FOnly-white-liberals-view-their-own-race-negatively%3A2800872

You are actually wrong when you say that the Muslim population is becoming more tolerant. There is plenty of evidence that younger Muslims are far more "Muslim" (in the traditional sense) than the older generation who came here to work & get on in life. In the case of the Iranian immigrants many literally escaped here from the mullahs.

Here’s a quote from the Quran about homosexuality:

For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

The penalty for homosexuality in several Muslim countries is death usually by hanging or stoning. Homosexuality is condemned in most religions but only in Muslim countries does the penalty continue to be death (at least state sanctioned)

IMO Religion is a poison for humanity which allows us to dehumanise our fellow human beings

@Warsawa31 Also remember what most people forget (or don't realise) about Islam. Unlike Christianity, Islam never developed a secular law which is territorially rather than theocratically based. In the western tradition there is "church/ecclesiastical law" and the "secular law" of the nation/people. In Islam there is only the Sharia.

We are talking about 2 legal traditions. The west derives its law from the people - which is expressed in a territorially limited way through the state.

Strictly speaking under Islam the law is derived from god, expressed through the Sharia and is for all mankind to follow

Zombie thread

an Indian friend who happens to be Hindu who said it is very unacceptable to 'come out' within their community.

India a Hindu majority country currently ruled by a Far Right Hindu despotic government with a thumping majority trying to create a National Register of Citizens religions Germany style - has had homosexuality as a criminal offence till a few years ago. The current legal status changes nothing on the ground. It’s just not accepted by Hindu families or Muslim families with exceptions.

India a Hindu majority country currently ruled by a Far Right Hindu despotic government with a thumping majority trying to create a National Register of Citizens religions Germany style - has had homosexuality as a criminal offence till a few years ago.

That was a colonial law. It was the British Raj which criminalised homosexuality in India in the nineteenth century.

To repeat:

ZOMBIE THREAD

Yes the issue of grooming was mismanaged

Unbelievably, in the same breath, you accuse another poster of “some scary dressing up of language”!

@recrudescence I think the phrase "ethnic solidarity" is a perfectly straightforward term to be honest. I assume he thinks I should have written "racist" or something similar. Clearly the grooming wasn't "mismanaged" it was "managed away". I can't speak for anywhere else but in Peterborough it still is.

I don’t know what this ‘fundamentalist Christianity’ people speak of is. Homosexuality is quite clearly proscribed in the Bible, both in the Old Testament (so Jewish law that shouldn’t necessarily be followed) and New Testament Christian teachings. Some Anglican Churches in the western world may turn a blind eye to those teachings but worldwide there is no question that mainstream churches consider homosexual acts to be sinful.

Christians, especially British Christians, may not air their beliefs on the subject much for various reasons (including recognising their own sinful behaviour and not wanting to be hypocritical, not wanting to make people uncomfortable and not wanting to be branded with various names like extremist and bigot), but that doesn’t mean that Christianity, even in the west, has widely rejected Biblical teaching on homosexuality.

@charlestonchaplin I agree the majority of Christians worldwide disagree with homosexuality. Nonetheless there is still a distinction to be made between the traditional Christian and Muslim understandings of terrestrial law.

This is one of the many times I'm bloody proud to be a Reform Jew. Unlike the other end of the spectrum of Judaism, we welcome gay people, trans people, women. More than that - we make them Rabbis and cantors and teachers. In this day and age there's no reason religions should not move and change with the times.

Your citing Andy Ngo on this? The man who starts fights and then claims he was attacked?

Being gay was actually illegal in the UK until pretty recently

I wouldn't call 50 years pretty recently.

It's a common view in many religions. There are plenty of homophobic Christians. However looking at people on an individual basis I've known Muslims who don't have this view and have got on well/been friends with gay people. To be honest I'm surprised you're so shocked by this discovery. Pleas not let's single Muslims out. My DH is Hindu abd being gay is not acceptable to many Hindus either. I've heard Indian people say proudly "There are no gay Indians". What does that tell you?

It's worth noting that marriage equality was only legalised in part of the UK this month, and the DUPs religious fundamentalism is part of why it took so long.

The Muslim community have a long way to go. I do know gay/lesbian Muslims, and Imaan do some good work, but I remember at uni, I was in the LGBT Society and we had Muslim members who were cagey about being seen with us. UJS had BAGELS for LGBT members, which I can't imagine the frummers being too happy about - I went to a BAGELS gathering with some gay lads - but FOSIS had no equivalent. Also, homosexuality is punishable by death in a lot of Islamic countries.

As for my own religion, there's an organisation called Keshet for LGBT Jews. I have friends who were members - there were Orthodox Jews whose families had sat shiva for them after they came out. To bring home how horrible that is, sitting shiva is what you do when someone dies.

@FrankSlater you forgot 7. Misogyny.

@Bezalelle me too! One reason why I converted was because Reform Judaism would accept me as a bi woman. I couldn't be Orthodox because I'd be forced into heterosexuality.

I wouldn't call 50 years pretty recently.

Interesting article.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/23/fifty-years-gay-liberation-uk-barely-four-1967-act

My Palestinian colleague (in his 20s) believes 100% that homosexuality is caused by something happening in early childhood and that you can be counselled out of it. He also believes that there are hardly any gay men in Muslim communities as he has never heard of any. He would not be able to be friends with a gay man.

Trying to reason or offer other evidence doesn't work. I've tried.

Some Anglican Churches in the western world may turn a blind eye to those teachings but worldwide there is no question that mainstream churches consider homosexual acts to be sinful.

Not just Anglican ones, some Calvinist churches do as well. The Church of Scotland does, but it was a divisive move and a number of congregations left and joined the Free Church as a result. Last I heard the Free Church was the fastest growing denomination in the land, though I may well be out of date here as I'm no expert.

Can't speak for other strands of Protestantism, but I'm pretty sure both Pentacostalists (the largest group) and Anabapists are anti. Not so sure about Baptists or Lutherans.