Homophobia within the Muslim community

[thankssomuchforthat]

Please can we keep this thread calm and good natured as this is a genuine question.
I was genuinely shocked at a spokesperson for the Muslim community on GMB condemning gay people as sinful. Saying being gay is fundamentally wrong. Saying most Muslim people vehemently believe this. Is this true? Or are gay Muslims tolerated within the community? What would happen if a Muslim teenager was gay. Would the family disown them?
Genuine question. I suppose I mix in circles that are tolerant of homosexuality.
Please keep comments nice and friendly.

Being / doing how dare you tell my son he is wrong for either. Do you know how damaging it is for gay children to hear these views.

Dress it up all you like, it’s homophobic. There is nothing wrong with my son being gay and there is nothing wrong with him having same sex partners in the future.

So, to say that Catholicism doesn’t protect paedophilia when the Church so clearly does, even the frickin pope is an apologist.
The clergy, yes. Catholicism in general, no.

I meant the heads of Christian schools are more likely to pay attention to any protesting parents, assuming Christian or Catholic schools invite outside groups.

I actually find it interesting that while the New Testament is about tolerance, but some Christian groups are very intolerant anyway, which suggests that at the core it's not the religion but the people or the culture.

even the frickin pope is an apologist

I'd really appreciate a potted explanation of what he's said or done, if possible please.

I've somehow managed to have lived under a rock regarding this pope and his stance or action/inaction on paedophilia in the church.

The way I look at it, schools have a duty to teach facts as facts, and opinions and opinions to be critiqued.

Fundamentalist Christians demand that evolution not be taught in schools. Shockingly, in the USA this is actually listened to in some place, thankfully not here. So evolution is taught as fact given that all credible scientists are certain that all the evidence backs it up. Creationist theories are taught as just that, a theory. This religion believes in Adam and Eve etc. This is not backed up by any evidence, so science ignores it.

RE children should learn about all the major religions, what they believe and why they believe it. It helps understanding and tolerance.

Similarly, social issues should be taught as, well: certain people are attracted to people of the same sex. They can live together and be married. In the UK we now believe that this is valid and ok. They are born with this preference and they deserve our respect. Some religions teach that it is not ok. Gay people have been treated badly because of these teachings. In a civilised country like the UK, you can disagree with their choices, but you should respect them and treat them equally. This is actually the law.

If you are muslim, for example. I don't think you can possibly ask that children learn about your religion so that they develop a knowledge and erespect of your religion, then in the same breath exclude their own children from learning the same tolerance for other peoples life choices.

Just to add my opinion in here some more. Homosexuality is something you are born with. Its not really a choice. Religion is a belief system. Like following a football team that that is just a bit more historical. As a society i don't know why we give so much credence to ancient texts and the beliefs of their followers, but i suppose we have to for the sake of peace.

He has been sitting a bit on the fence, although lately he's been more forceful and I do feel he has been forced to finally face the issue.
I wouldn't call him an apologist, though.

Having said that, he is facing an Everest of issues within the Catholic Church itself, from corruption to treatment of gay, divorced, etc members, women, to abuse victims in many contexts.
It's not done in a day.
Coming from a Catholic community, I know the internal struggle by some members to catch up with the times, for more inclusion and openness. I'm very aware of the undercurrents of more religious fundamentalists, or traditionalists, but essentially misogynists and racists and science deniers.

I imagine that Islam as a whole deals with similar issues, with traditional and entrenched values and practices still very strong among some groups, due to cultural or religious factors. It will be mostly an internal process, encouraged by external pressures.
But, we should be careful not to make it "us" vs "them". We should direct criticism to the specific homophobic (whateverphobic) groups.

It's important that more moderate muslim groups are vocal in their more inclusive opinions. The problem is, how many newspapers are willing to give them a voice? It sells more to show the homophobic protesters.

Sorry, "he" is Pope Francis.

Francis promoted Pell in 2014.

Even if you are generous and believe he didn't know about Pell's actual raping of children, he certainly knew about how he screwed them over a second time as part of the Melbourne Response.

All of the religions are the same, all about control and lies and power.

I know of a Muslim family in my town who's son came out as transgender. I still see the family out and about with their now daughter. I stupidly had so many negative thoughts when I heard about this, (small town and unfortunately gossip is rife) mainly that the son would be disowned, how stupid was I. I did hear that the older members of the family did shun him, but his mother, father and siblings have accepted it and have carried on as normal.

So I think the answer is, all regions generally don't accept homophobia, however, a strong and loving family would accept anything

Islam is by far less tolerant of homosexuality than any other religion I know of. Which other religion (in its extreme forms) throws gays off buildings. Let’s not pretend otherwise.

There are those who would say it’s easier for someone with beliefs that homosexuality is wrong to accept that their child is the wrong gender than the wrong sexual orientation.

It’s very interesting that People tread so carefully over issues in the Muslim community yet so easily throw other religions under the bus to ‘justify it’.

And yes I’ve read being trans is seen as a ‘birth defect’ in some Islamic teachings, and people are in some places are actively encouraged to transition to be accepted as gay.

I suppose this is the type of thing we are trying ro avoid!

"Brunei introduces death by stoning as punishment for gay sex"
www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/28/brunei-brings-in-death-by-stoning-as-punishment-for-gay-sex

It’s very interesting that People tread so carefully over issues in the Muslim community yet so easily throw other religions under the bus to ‘justify it’.

Agree with this, I don’t understand why. I think all religions are deserving of criticisms, but I don’t think it helps when other religions are dragged in in order to minimise when it’s a thread about a particular one.....Christianity often comes under attack so it’s wrong to call Islamaphobe if it happens to be about Islam. Every religion has aspects that other people might find abhorrent/strange, Islam is no different.

@thankssomuchforthat

I suppose this is the type of thing we are trying ro avoid!

"Brunei introduces death by stoning as punishment for gay sex"

Yes like Muslims will introduce this into UK law. 🙄

Pretty obvious what your agenda is now, OP. Your faux naive ’I just want to learn in a peaceful way’ doesn’t fool me.

Reported in case you’re known to MNHQ.

Scared to voice my opinion incase I get attacked

Being gay doesn't make a Muslim go out of the fold of Islam. They are still Muslim. Same as someone who drinks alcohol even though alcohol is forbidden.
Being stoned to death does not happen as easily as people think. Same as adultery. You have to provide 4 witnesses before you make your claim that someone committed adultery. If you can't even provide one, then you will receive the punishment instead. So just reporting someone isn't as straightforward either. I think it would be very hard to provide 4 witnesses too. This falls in line with a hadith which is to basically not judge others and focus on your own life but encourage each other to do good and focus on the hereafter.

I'm not very good at keeping up with Mumsnet threads as I can never find my old post on fast moving threads but if you have any questions just message me.

M4J4:
Wow, you are actually not correct. Ive never been called "faux naive" before. I am enjoying all comments on either side but am quite surprised how difficult it is to have an open, friendly discussion. Today's Brunei story is newsworthy and relevant, and it caught my eye, as it serves to contrast with the situation in the UK, and show how certain countries deal with gay people.

I wouldn't imagine being stoned to death ever happens 'easily'.

Thanks babba2014 : thats interesting, didn't know that.

All of the religions are the same, all about control and lies and power

And inherently controlling of women’s sexuality and reproductive choices and options. So many rules for women about sex. I suppose that homosexual men don’t fit into that rigid religious framework. They have sex for pleasure, not procreation and their sexual reltions don’t result in children who can be raised within the guidelines of . Therefore it must be sinful.

Why are all the various religions so onbsessed with sex?

I never realised the teacher who brought in the "no outsiders" programme is up for the best global teacher prize:
www.globalteacherprize.org/finalists/2019-finalists

*Andrew Moffat.
Just shows to highlight how one person's "best teacher in the world" is hated enough by others to get him drummed out of his last job. Serves to highlight the differences in opinion.

Stoning not as easy as you think, need 4 witnesses- that’s ok then.

I’ll tell my son that. You’re allowed to be gay but just make make sure 4 people don’t catch you with your boyfriend otherwise you’ll be stoned to death. I’m sure gay teens up and down the land will sleep easy and feel good about themselves.

I wouldn't imagine being stoned to death ever happens 'easily'.

Oh, dear.

I tend to point out the contrast between referring to entire religions or entire communities instead of specific groups.
But I'm fully against homophobic and bigoted laws and regimes.
And I'm not naive to think that it's not easy to mistreat anyone based on these laws.
Just their existence is abhorrent.

Why are all the various religions so onbsessed with sex?

Can't say if it's all, but it tends to be about power and control.
The reason why Catholic priests were eventually forbidden from marrying was mainly to do with inheritances.