Homophobia within the Muslim community

[thankssomuchforthat]

Please can we keep this thread calm and good natured as this is a genuine question.
I was genuinely shocked at a spokesperson for the Muslim community on GMB condemning gay people as sinful. Saying being gay is fundamentally wrong. Saying most Muslim people vehemently believe this. Is this true? Or are gay Muslims tolerated within the community? What would happen if a Muslim teenager was gay. Would the family disown them?
Genuine question. I suppose I mix in circles that are tolerant of homosexuality.
Please keep comments nice and friendly.

@limekiwi because at the moment hundreds of Muslims are protesting as the do not want their children taught about differences in the community the live in. If it was Christians protesting then the thread would be aimed at them and I doubt very much you would be questioning that.

there are no other religious groups heading this protest. It is predominantly muslims. Can you explain how a debate about this is singling muslims out?

Actually you are singling out Muslims, the current protest is made up of Muslims, Christians and some Jewish groups. And the teacher who is being criticised as part of the protest left a previous post after complaints on his LGBT work from Christian parents.

barnabasfund.org/en/news/muslim-and-christian-parents-withdraw-children-from-uk-school-in-protest-over-lgbt-content-in

"This is not a one faith row. Yes, Muslims in Birmingham are the dominant protesters, but people from the Christian and Jewish community have also travelled to the city from other parts of the country to give their support to their overriding message: that homosexuality does not form part of the traditional concept of marriage and should not be introduced to children as young as four."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47666831

"But the Christian Institute accused Ofsted of being obsessed with forcing primary school children to learn about same-sex issues and argued that such lessons should be left until secondary school age.

Director Colin Hart said Mrs Spielman's remarks did nothing to reassure parents of faith that their concerns were being heard.
'It's LGBT issues that we always seem to be hearing about. Parents want Ofsted to ensure the quality of education. They don't want Ofsted side-tracked into identity politics,' he said.
He continued: 'Not every controversial issue has to be covered in primary schools.
'The idea of teaching ever more detail about sex to ever younger children is deeply worrying. Treating parents who object as homophobes is not the answer. They just want to protect their child's innocence.' "
www.christiantoday.com/article/parents-concerned-about-lgbt-school-lessons-are-not-homophobes-says-christian-group/131847.htm
www.christian.org.uk/news/ofsted-backed-lgbt-course-suspended-by-primary-school-after-parents-protest/

But hey I guess for some of you Christian-bashing so much less fun than finding a new excuse for Muslim-bashing and a side of covert racism.

@DottieRichardson - thanks, that's what I meant really - from what I've seen on the news there's been a mix marching.
Some media seems to have a Muslim angle though which is a bit off when it's others too

Is the school not predominantly Muslim kids? Would be interested to find out what percentage of the parents protesting are Muslim and what percentage other religions.
Is impossible to ever have a civil discussion without being accused of Muslim bashing and covert racism. I think this is a topic thats been in the news all day. We should be allowed to discuss it.

*is it impossible

You can discuss whatever you like, doesn't meant that some of us can't question your motives, particularly as you've fixated on the Muslim GMB guest, when there was a Christian representative arguing against LGBT classes on GMB a few days ago, and there have been Christian protests in South London against LGBT classes, Pride at Schools, in Manchester, and elsewhere in the UK over the last year. Rows about gay ministers in the Church of England, over celebrating gay marriage in various Christian denominations. Funny how you've only just noticed homophobia in religion when it also linked to Islam.

Just like to point out that there are people from all religions and also atheists protesting about this programme. Don't tar all Muslims with the same brush. Some are against it some aren't. You wouldn't like me accusing all white people of being white suprematists.

The actual people protesting are the ones who disagree with the program, not the whole Muslim/Christian/Jewish/Buddhist/atheist/Jedi etc population. Just those few. Don't generalise.

Religions (pretty much all of them) are about control and setting people up with an 'us and them' train of thought.

This is just a manifestation of that.

I think its a red herring to say its islamaphobic to discuss specifically UK Muslims views on gay people. According to the media ALL 600 primary pupils who were withdrawn from the school were Muslim children. They make up 80 per cent of the children in the school where protests are: Parkfield Community School. So its a specific issue concerning Muslim parents objecting to their children being taught that gay relationships are to be accepted. So I cant see why people are saying we need to talk about other religions in this instance?

I want to know why it's accepted that muslims are against homosexuality but it's not ok for Christians to say they don't want them in their hotel/B&B or to bake cakes for them. It's double standards imo.

Anyway, thanks for the contributions on this thread... it has been genuinely interesting to see all the different viewpoints. Its been a strange experience being called incendiary, islamaphobic and a covert racist, of which I am none. Just genuinely interested in getting a few different view points.

You undermined your own position, you claimed that it was homophobia that bothered you and that came up because of an interview that you saw with a Muslim representative who was anti-gay. But when people made it clear that this is not an Islamic thing but cuts across several religions, you kept bringing it back to Islam. You ended your opening post with a comment that you were used to liberal circles tolerant of gay beliefs, but rather than wanting to talk about homophobia and religion again you kept bringing the discussion back to Islam. So that suggests it's Islamic beliefs that bother you more than homophobia.

It's ridiculous to suggest, as some have, that we shouldn't bring up homophobia in other religions because the op only mentions Islam.

And according to the media other religious groups supported them.

My understanding is that none of the religions say thatbeing gay is wrong.

So theoretically at least, whetherr gay muslims are tolerated or not will depend on whether they abstain.

Unless if they become trans, because then I believe some Muslim authorities will see that as acceptable.

@dottierichardson genuine question. Are you on threads about paedophila in the catholic church pointing out that peadophilia also exists within muslim communities? Did you also comment on the thread about the Chriatain couple refusing to bake a cake for a gay couole and feel the need to point out that muslims have a homophobia problem too? Or is it just Islam that we are not allowed to talk about in your opinion without being accused of "singling" them out.

Also I live not far from where the proteats are taking place. I can promise you that the parents protesting and taking theor kids out of school are Muslim. I have no reason to lie about that. A friend of mine is one of the people who started the community meetings to arrange the protest and it is predominantly Muslims not just a bit of a majority but almost all. Its ok to talk about that. Ffs.

@wafflyversatile. So in this exact scenario it is at least 90% muslims proteating if not more. Please answer....are you one of the what about the men posters when the issue is domestic violence because you seem unable to accept we are allowed to talk about the main group of people who are the main perpetrators and blatantly showing their homophobic views in this instance.

Great thread op. I’m also Muslim. I don’t agree with people eating pork and drinking alcohol, sex outside marriage or homosexuality. Yet I have friends who do these things and I still love them.

I have friends who don’t agree with hijab, halal meat, sex until marriage and they still accept me.

I also teach in a non faith school where Muslim children have openly professed they are gay and no one including myself could care less.

It saddens me that homosexuality is shunned and people are still vilified. For me it’s entirely about being able to have your own value system but also being able to respect someone else’s.

dottierichardson genuine question. Are you on threads about paedophila in the catholic church pointing out that peadophilia also exists within muslim communities? Did you also comment on the thread about the Chriatain couple refusing to bake a cake for a gay couole and feel the need to point out that muslims have a homophobia problem too?

I wasn't the target, but as a cultural Catholic, I would disagree if anyone said that the Catholic faith at heart encourages or protects paedophilia or that Christians are homophobic based on those cases. And I'm pretty sure I've pointed out in other threads that other religious systems are up for abuse of power too.
Yes, the Catholic Church's hierarchy has a problem with the cover ups that needs urgent and vigorous address.
Yes, many fundamentalist Christian faiths have homophobic (as well as several other less Christian phobic and isms behaviour).

I'm the first to be concerned with fundamentalist Muslims and with the treatment of women, gays, etc in some Muslim countries, as in some Catholic traditional countries. But I wouldn't want to consider the entire communities as the problem.

There will always be a conflict between dogmatism and intolerance and with tolerance and mutual respect. But that's where the conflict should lie. Not between religions or between atheists and religious people. It's the dogmatic and intolerant people that should be fought, with the danger of losing the sight of where the real fight is.
And with the danger of playing into the hands of certain types of intolerant and dogmatic people who simply don't like people from other religions or skin colour.

I think the issue with Muslims and school protests has at least two confounders.
One is that, still, many Muslims are immigrants or recent immigrants and from more traditional cultures, which makes culture and tradition other factors besides religion itself.
The other is that fundamentalist Catholic and Christian parents are already sending their children to faith schools where it's less likely they'll invite LGBT groups to speak. Or protests go straight to the Head and are probably accepted very quickly.

Islam regards homosexuality as a sin so one would deduce that yes they are saying it’s wrong.

I think some using Christchurch to make a point is pretty repugnant.

There were threads re the Christian cake abd guest house protests, I posted on those too. Have also posted against Christian extremism in some schools. I am an atheist. When therre are threads re Christian or Jewish followers trying to push their homophobic views in schools rest assured I’ll post on those too.

I think this is a valid discussion for the op to start given current events. Seeeping homophobia under the carpet is damaging and does society only harm.

It seems disingenuous to me to try so very hard to separate the religion from the practice. So, to say that Catholicism doesn’t protect paedophilia when the Church so clearly does, even the frickin pope is an apologist.

Same with this proclamation that the Quran/ bible/ insert religious text here says that homosexuality (as this is what homosexual sex is) is wrong but apparently followers of the book don’t care if someone else is gay. This is demonstrably false when looking a any country who’s laws are based in religion, I include the UK in this as legalisation of gay marriage is so so recent. Just as being atheist is so controversial n these religions because it is going against the book. It’s bullshit to try to claim otherwise imo.

You might say that it is the influence of humans (men) who pollute the message and practice, but these religions are man made so there is no pure religion away from the meddling of man.

"Same with this proclamation that the Quran/ bible/ insert religious text here says that homosexuality (as this is what homosexual sex is) is wrong but apparently followers of the book don’t care if someone else is gay. This is demonstrably false when looking a any country who’s laws are based in religion, I include the UK in this as legalisation of gay marriage is so so recent."

Forming same-sex relationships is part of the doing that they object to. Not sure why a disaproval of same-sex marriage demonstrates the falsity of the notion that it is not the being that is wrong, but the doing.

All state schools are supposed to deal with homophobic language and bullying which will occur everywhere. There will need to be provision for struggling LGBT pupils. 6% of the population are gay so gay pupils will be in every school.And no Christian kids don’t just go to Christian schools in the same way Muslim pupils go to a variety of schools. My dc go to school with Muslim pupils. Not heard of any parent trying to shut down the huge amount of work done to eradicate homophobic language and bullying or to halt support given to LGBT pupils.Suggesting heads would give in to Christian homophobia but not Muslim ihomophobia is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve heard on these threads.

Some interesting points on both sides. Its really important to discuss these issues.