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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask how many genuine sociopaths/psychopaths you've actually met?

364 replies

WillGymForPizza · 23/03/2019 16:06

I strongly suspect that I'm working with someone who is possibly a sociopath. Obviously I'm not a psychiatrist so can't properly diagnose, but Ive met some dodgy and unlikable people in my time and this person takes it to a whole level. I genuinely believe her to be evil. She doesn't appear to have a moral compass and seems to take great pleasure in publicly humiliating her staff. They are all utterly terrified of her.

Most disturbingly of all I work in a Primary School and this person is this person is the headteacher....

How common is this kind of thing? Ive never come across anyone like this before.

OP posts:
sailorsdelight · 25/03/2019 20:26

My old boss was a sociopath. But I work in corporate world and I think there’s quite a few people at the top like that - they’re lauded for their ruthlessness, focus and drive.

bemusedmoose · 25/03/2019 20:32

Lots! I married one (narcissistic sociopath) - once your eyes are opened you start to spot them everywhere! Generally they seek positions of power over others so it doesn't surprise me that yours is a head.

I work with children and even at primary age you can spot them :(

Decormad38 · 25/03/2019 20:34

I once knew a nurse like this. He seemed to sneer when talking to you and had a massive sense of his own self importance.

You can watch youtube clips on him now because he killed patients on nights and is banged up in jail.

genius1308 · 25/03/2019 20:45

My old boss was like you describe op, and we worked with children too. Maybe it's a power kick for them...being totally on control of a vulnerable person? She was in charge of 3 child care facilties. It was a regular occurrence that she would have the staff in tears (and I'm talking about grown men and women with children of their own, not young teenage girls). She seemed to revel in making them cry! She would have her favourite children, who could do no wrong but the majority could do nothing right. She behaved like a child alot of the time. I remember her coming in and screaming and stamping her feet (literally) in front of the children. Everyone was scared of her. After about a month of working their I told my husband I'm either going to leave or I'm going in and standing up to her...which may result in me getring fired! He said 'go for it'. I'm definitely no shrinking violet and i was cross with myself for allowing it to happen but it was just such a shock. I'd always worked in schools where staff were always pleasant, helpful, appreciative etc I'd honestly never seen a grown adult behave like this. Long story short, i did go back , started noting incidence, times/places/people present etc and when I had 10 long pages i took it all to her line manager. No one (higher up) could believe it because she was always sweetness and light in front of anyone important. Eventually she got offered voluntary redundancy (which still makes me mad because she got paid for being a bitch imo). But she left, so that was a bonus. It makes me sad to think of how many people's, and children's, lives she made unbearable on a daily basis and no one seemed to be prepared to do anything to challenge it (but I'm as stubborn as a mule and can't abide injustices). All the staff used to laugh and say 'she made the biggest mistake of her life when she employed you ' Wink

michmum · 25/03/2019 20:48

Definitely met one. He was md in blue chip company heading to top. Found out he had a sordid past too late. He was charming but very weird, compulsive liar and kept diaries on people. One night he wanted me to attend a company meal to thank staff. Later that night he threw me out of the very plush hotel battered, bruised and naked all because i couldn't stay the night due to child care arrangements. Police wasn't interested as he told them i was some tart! We had been in relationship over 12 months, looking at moving in together. Another time he had his children staying while i was out with family. He had arranged for another woman to come over. This was all in my house. Talk about pushing boundaries. That was over 14 yrs ago. Thank god i sussed his behaviour out

MyBestFriendIsOne · 25/03/2019 20:55

It’s in the eyes. They have a cold evil glint, once you work that out, you know.

Yes, plus when some people think of psychopaths they often think of people who have committed terrible crimes or are CEOs/managers, etc. Some appear unremarkable but the psychopathy is still present. It's how they are wired.

puppy23 · 25/03/2019 21:04

According to the Channel4 quiz (obvs not that accurate) I'm 41% psychopathic. I think from memory (and should know more accuratly being a psychologist!) that about 1% of the population are psychopaths

albertcamus · 25/03/2019 21:10

In 28 years of teaching across the age and ability range in tough schools, I encountered only one, a boy of 12, who was pure unmitigated evil. He sticks in my mind because he was so very different to the others who were only naughty, rude or difficult. One day a middle-aged man came crying to the school at 4pm to appeal for something to be done about the boy's vicious behaviour towards him and his family, just because they happened to live close to the school. Nothing was done until he was eventually expelled in Year 9. I have never before or since encountered anyone even remotely like this boy.

Ibiza7 · 25/03/2019 21:21

Is it a small Essex primary? I know one like that, she's vile and has been overheard telling people that she wants to see how long it tales to break someone. One staff.member lost her Dad, was off for sometime and was told "Get over it, he was old. Did you expect him to live forever?". Reported many times and the Trust always back her.

ScrambledSmegs · 25/03/2019 21:27

I don't think I could confidently say that I've met any. This probably means either that I am spectacularly unobservant, or I am one myself.

I think I've developed more sociopathic traits as I've got older, but quite frankly I consider this a positive thing as I spend far less time worrying about what other people think of me now.

Smotheroffive · 25/03/2019 21:29

Well, unless you're a psychiatrist who's spent considerable time clinically assessing you can have no way of knowing!

Ellyess · 25/03/2019 21:40

WillGymForPizza. You are probably right.
I would look on the internet for definitions, or better, how to recognise a psychopath or a sociopath or someone with anti-social personalty disorder or a narcissist. The term Psychopath has disappeared from the diagnostic manual for mental disorders and debate goes on all the time about the distinction between psycho- or socio- path. But it does not matter much to us as lay people. What matters is the abuse they do. Keep that uppermost in your mind. You need to get very sharp at noticing the abuse, writing it down, noting the time and the context and who was targeted or involved. To sharpen up your discernment and recognition of abuse, look up everything you can under the headings of psychopath, sociopath, abuser, narcissist, bully.
There are lots of things on the internet to help understand what is psychopathic. You will be able to discern those which are well written.
I was watching this yesterday before I read your Post.:
Scott Lilienfeld: The Search for Successful Psychopathy

. It's quite academic so may be a bit boring - I did a fair bit of research so I kind of "do" this type of lecture. This one is a more of a light- although that isn't really possible with this subject - approach to psychopathy. It's a long discussion but they come out with so many human truths from their experience. The accents are gorgeous! (I only have a rather dull kind of English accent). It's: Psychopaths Explained, Thomas Sheridan, James Corbett, Jay Weidner

If you like something academic, I would watch YouTube:
Dr Katherine Horton Recognising Psychopaths

and look at the page about her: stop007.org/home/about/

Use the internet to make yourself aware of what to look out for.
Psychopaths are cunning. They are con-artists. Usually charming. But their main ingredient is their lack of ability or desire to empathise, closely followed by not having a conscience. They can act as if they care, they can suck you in. They like to act the victim too. They enjoy the suffering of others. AND they are liars! OmG do they lie! They would rather lie than tell the truth even if the truth were better. Also you/I/we will never understand them because with a normal logical kind mind, we just cannot possibly understand what they are saying/thinking. We can't follow their twisted "logic". There has been research on the language they use, actually and it finds they come out with things that are illogical sometimes and hold to them without seeing the lack of logic. People have spent years analysing them! Mostly from the Prison population because they are a ready available group (captive audience?). However, as Scott Lilienfield above says, that means we haven't been looking at all of them - only those who broke the law and got caught! There are so many more who are not in prison whom he calls "successful psychopaths", like your Head Teacher. It's not at all a surprise it's the Head either. They always aim for the top. They like uniforms, places of drama, money, (the stock exchange) the Church - makes people easy for them to pick on. The list always quotes they are: CEO. Lawyer. Media(TV/Radio). Salesperson. Surgeon. Journalist. Police Officer. Clergy Person.
I have met many of different types. I was married to a Covert Narcissist (School Teacher) with psychopathic traits. It was impossible for me to understand what was going on and to try and be happy. That is a long story and could have led me to study my Psychology Degree and subsequent career.
I have of course read quite a lot! And studied and done research. It is a very absorbing subject but also too distressing a lot of the time.

If you are being tortured by someone who has the behaviours which come under the heading of psych/sociopath, you will become distressed, depressed, anxious, and find yourself getting exhausted. In a school you will be going crazy trying to protect the children. In my first career I too was a Teacher and worked under a very Psychopathic female Head in a Primary School. I reported her to the Inspectorate. They sort-of got rid of her by pensioning her off several years early. Then they paid me to be an Inspector! Anyway, where ever they are, they will turn people against each other, have favourites, and do all kinds of manipulative things to upset the harmony in the staff room. You will not know who to trust, even the kindest people will have been manipulated. Remember too that people will be frightened. It will be best to say little but listen a lot. You are unlikely to unseat the Head, these people are too cunning and will have people supporting them. Start looking for your next job. Meanwhile, catalogue the abuses you see, hear about and come across. It's what she does that will trip her up. You only need to have a name for the behaviour in order to look it up and get information so you are well informed. Don't try to do your own labelling, or worse, diagnosing. It's ok to say that a behaviour was a typically psychopathic type of behaviour.

I really hope you will be safe, Willgym, and that this person soon leaves this school and works where she cannot hurt children. By hurt I include distress them or upset their progress. Bad experience in early years can prevent a child from ever reaching their full potential.
Good luck. Protect yourself. There are more good people out there than bad, but they do get confused by these horrible people. Lots of love.Flowers

Ellyess · 25/03/2019 21:50

bottleofbeer. In terms of getting jobs certainly. And being happy maybe.

WillGymForPizza · 25/03/2019 21:53

No, I'm not in Essex either. So that's yet another head teacher.

The whole place is so toxic, I really don't want to go back tomorrow. Ive worked in other schools and knows this isn't the norm. It really isn't.

OP posts:
Ellyess · 25/03/2019 21:56

WillGymForPizza
She's a psycho. You've said it:
She makes me feel so uneasy.
this is something else,
revels in breaking people.
doesn't appear to have a moral compass
Just remember; note down as soon as you can What she actually did that demonstrated these very psychopathic traits. List the behaviour, the person(s) involved, time, duration. Even how it arose and what happened afterwards if you can.
Good luck!

Ellyess · 25/03/2019 22:14

Firstbornunicorn. The one you describe sounds as if he might meet clinical criteria if this behaviour is stable and over a long duration and happens all the time not just in a few places (like at work or with his mates). Remember the criteria don't all have to be met. Also you may not know him in all contexts.

The important thing for us lay people is just to learn from the diagnostic headings what kinds of behaviour are abusive and unacceptable. I know this sounds mad because surely we know when someone does something abusive? But sometimes it is hard to actually put your finger on it - worse, some people get used to it and don't realise they deserve better.
All we need is to gather the data; get the evidence; write down all the abuse, bad behaviour. By reading about psychopathy and sociopathy etc we can learn what to look out for, Narcissism, psychopathy (hardly ever used in the clinic as a term) anti-social personality, sociopathy ... they all have such huge overlaps that even if they reach a diagnosis it hardly makes any difference. The people with them think they are very well. They don't usually turn up at the clinic except the odd Narcissist who says after his 101th woman (yes, they are mostly male) has escaped him: "I seem to have trouble with relationships." subscript: "aren't I so wonderful to come and say so? Now I want you to tell ke how to keep these women so I can do what I want with them after all I'm an amazing catch."
It's their victims we see in the clinic. With depression and anxiety. Often they have no idea of their rights or what sorts of boundaries they could rightfully have expected in a relationship. Most have gone way past knowing how they expect to be treated. They lost hope and self-respect years ago. That is what being with someone with one of those diagnostic headings does to you.

Lougle · 25/03/2019 22:22

"bottleofbeer

The Sally Anne test and false belief tasks explain ToM better than I can if you want to look them up!"

That test doesn't always work. My DD2 was diagnosed with ASD at the age of 11. At 6, a SALT did a 'Sally-Anne test' with her, and because she gave the 'right' answer, declared her as having good ToM. What the SALT missed was that DD2 didn't engage with the test in the way intended.

The story was of a girl who went to the beach and put her watch in her bag to stop it getting wet. A naughty bird came along and stole the watch, taking it up in to a tree. Where did the girl look for her watch?

The test supposes that if you have good ToM, you'd say 'her bag', because the girl doesn't know about the naughty bird stealing the watch. If you have poor ToM, you'd say 'in the tree', because you know the naughty bird stole the watch, even though 'Sally' doesn't. You can't 'unknow what you know'.

DD2 said "in her bag". But when I later asked her why the girl looked in her bag, she said "because it's her bag, Mummy. Of course she looks inside her bag. It belongs to her."

DD2 hadn't considered the girl to be looking for her watch and thinking about where the watch might be. She was simply using logic that if you want to find something of yours, you look in the bag that belongs to you. She hadn't even considered the fact that the watch wasn't in there.

DD2 actually has a very poor ToM, and needs step by step prompting to think of things from someone else's point of view.

Ellyess · 25/03/2019 22:23

JustmeandtheKIDS2. I feel for you. Remember - you got rid of him! I know you still have to put up with his evil stuff. I'm so very sorry about this. But be strong! You don't have to be with him any more. You have the children and as they grow they will start to see things for themselves. Take care of yourself. Give yourself a happy time! Do nice things as much as you can! Lots of love Flowers

Ellyess · 25/03/2019 22:26

Lougle. Such an excellent example. Thanks. It really needs to be in all the Psychology/Psychiatry manuals.

Ellyess · 25/03/2019 22:32

ScrambledSmegs

I spend far less time worrying about what other people think of me now.. That's called self confidence. Smile

self confidence = good
sociopathic traits = bad!

Honestly - to be sociopathic you have to be very nasty and consistently so. For a diagnosis you can't suddenly develop it unless there's something new come out recently that I missed! The Personality Disorders have to be of long duration and across different situations . I reckon you are healthy!

RochelleGoyle · 25/03/2019 22:33

Cats 'It's a life skill to recognize one.'

No, it really isn't. It's a skill to recognise that someone gives us bad vibes or seems different. But 'recognising' socio/psychopaths is a complex task which requires layers of life history knowledge. It's easy to talk rubbish, as has been demonstrated on this thread!

Ellyess · 25/03/2019 22:42

bemusedmoose Mon 25-Mar-19 20:32:42
"once your eyes are opened you start to spot them everywhere!"
I'm glad you said that because I feel that too. I do think the 1% estimate is too low. There are many, especially those who are not as successful but remain cruel and cold and nasty. Yet they have the knack of conning people.

Btw, I was told when I was doing research that in prisons the "ordinary" kind of criminals who, for example, stole for gain, could suss out the psychopaths really quickly and wouldn't have anything to do with them!

GerrysSuccessor · 25/03/2019 22:45

Are you in the South East? I know a primary head just like this

Ellyess · 25/03/2019 22:54

RochelleGoyle. Recognising that you are being abused, in the ways these people in these categories abuse people, is a very valuable life skill. It can be gained by education. It is possible to raise people's awareness concerning the behaviour of these types of people. It is certainly a very good thing to learn about in preparation for adult life, as best as one can, in the sense of teaching young people how to set boundaries about how they wish to be treated and about the kinds of behaviour that nobody has to accept, neither child, teenager or adult.

If learning about the kind of abuses people who come into these groups perpetrate has no effect, or is not possible, that would mean the people who have learned from the very good You Tube channels about, for example, how to deal with a narcissist, are deluded in believing the talks have helped them. The messages they leave attest that the content of the educational video has greatly improved their skills and thereby their happiness.

smilingontheinside · 25/03/2019 23:00

One of my adult ac is married to one it has split our family

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