To think this absolutely is homophobic

[HuntIdeas]

Muslim families have successfully argued for Birmingham primary schools to stop the No Outsiders programme

"Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. It's not about being homophobic... that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

AIBU to think:

1. This absolutely is a homophobic thing to say
2. There are plenty of places in the world where you would get stoned for stating you didn’t believe in Islam!

Hopefully this link works: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47613578

What about gay Muslim kids, though? Don't they have a right to at least hear that not everyone thinks they're disgusting and shouldn't exist, or at least should never be allowed to have a sex life or make a longterm commitment to the person they love? I'm pretty sure there are Muslim groups who actively and specifically support LGBTQ Muslims (As I said, all religion is bullshit, but that also means that all the mythologies are open to interpretation and those kind, open-hearted people who happen to have an imaginary friend are often very good at finding loopholes in the storybooks which means they can keep their sexuality and their imaginary friend.)

Religious ideology trumps human rights. Its sad but we can only conclude that multi-culturalism does not work.

No, not thought - hoped, maybe. It's true that attitudes to homosexuality can be more vigorous in muslim countries, but since overall the UK isn't one of them I'd also hoped for more assimilation than sometimes seems to be the case

The thing is though that the UK has never pursued any assimilationist policies, so there isn't any reason for assimilation to have happened. It's totally different from a country like France where there is already a completely secular education system and a culture more in favour of assimilationist laws like banning hijab and niqab.

Many people are in the UK are in favour of this multicultural approach because it means everyone has the freedom to live how they want and so they feel more secure, and therefore get on with others better as they don't feel threatened by them.
e.g. I live in an area with a high Muslim population, which has mosques, Islamic schools, halal shops etc. but also has plenty of non-Muslims and has pubs etc. Everyone tends to get on well most of the time. Our building is 50/50 split between Muslims and non-Muslims and we always say hi, take in parcels etc.

But I think if there was more pressure to assimilate some of the convivencia in the area would break down a bit, not in terms of violence or anything but just that there would be more suspicion, more resentment.

Ultimately, though, if the UK starts to move more towards assimilation they should give Muslims some warning so they have the chance to leave.

Any gay child growing up in a very conservative religion is going to find it harder than a gay child growing up in a family that is supportive of their sexual orientation.
No virtue signalling school lesson is going to make much of a change there.
That's not to say I agree with that or think it's a good thing.
Children learn a lot from their peers.

I think it's more than just virtue signalling. For a child growing up in a homophobic being told that it's okay to be gay can be a big deal.

Maybe this episode shows we need to find a different way to express that in a school environmental?
There are other things that schools are being asked to teach as 'accepted wisdom' which not all parents agree with.
If an acceptable middle ground is not possible you will offend or alienate some.

I agree Beamur

So what exactly do you suggest?

Fwiw. I think you can show by example. Have school policies around how you behave towards each other, don't tolerate racism or sexism. Provide appropriate facilities for all. Teach with resources that reflect the world around us. I recall listening to an interview with Mallory Blackman which I found enlightening, she loved reading as a child but rarely saw herself in those books. I suspect it would be less contraversial to show different lifestyles and behaviour if they were simply embedded into subjects rather than taught separately with a 'right and wrong' approach.
Don't assume one view is right. Respect another even if you don't agree with it.
Maybe issues like homosexuality need (and may already be happening) to be covered not only in the pastoral care side of teaching but maybe also in RE so that the perspective of religious teaching is also covered.
It's not about tolerance. It's about showing that life is not simple. There are irreconcilable differences in thinking but we have to give children the tools to work it out for themselves.
My DD is at High School and so far, I have no issue with what she is being taught. She also commented that there are various posters around the school with positive messages around inclusivity, there seems to be good pastoral support and awareness around mental health.
In most schools I imagine kids talk about stuff like this, regardless of whether they've been taught or not. I was impressed by my SC's mature and thoughtful attitudes to matters around sex (they're a bit older).
In my experience, young adults are smart, plugged into information about the world around them and more clued up than my generation were.
I think some one else has already said what we do need to teach is resilience and critical thinking. To be curious about the information being presented to them and to willing to learn.

@BartholinsSister What I believe in is based on clear proof, not fantasy. But some people are not interested in the truth and so they turn away from it and disbelieve.

As for it being 2019, that which is true remains so regardless of which year it is.

@DangermousesSidekick
Firstly, ‘fundamentalist’ is meaningless as a term in relation to Islam. Fundamentalism arose within Christianity as a response to Modernist tendencies and was based around belief in the ‘five fundamentals’ hence the name. People have since erroneously applied the term to other religions but it doesn’t make any sense because that context is absent.
Secondly, people were only protesting because the school in question is almost entirely made up of Muslim pupils. If the school had been mixed I think they would have just removed their children from the lessons rather than protesting.
Thirdly, there has never been a fully secular public sphere in the Uk. There just hasn’t. There is an official church in both England and Scotland which is linked to the state, and the education systems have a religious observance requirement as well as provision for exemption on the grounds of religion. British Christians in many ways have sleepwalked into their own marginalisation as an influence in society.
Finally, you say that religious people must not be supported in their traditional beliefs but the law already supports them in that.

@Yenneferofvengerberg
No I believe it is in the children's best interests to grow up with a secure identity and knowledge about their religion within a supportive family environment where they feel they can come to their parents with their worries and problems.
You have to understand that a Muslim who is experiencing same sex attraction would not necessarily immediately jump to defining themselves as gay as a permanent characteristic of who they are. People do that nowadays because societal attitudes have changed. In the past people experienced such desires but still went on to marry and have children.

I’m gay, my family are Pakistani.

Child need to know they can be comfortable in their own skin, if you’re gay you fairly quickly realise you’re different, but you don’t know why. When I was at school the most common insults were gay, queer, fag, fairy etc if you were male, I had no idea what these words meant as a young child, but I knew it was a horrible shameful thing. I’m not camp or anything, so I wasn’t bullied at school as no one realised I was gay, but i saw some really awful bullying of other queer kids so I knew that that was how gay people are treated.

At mosque if a family suspected someone in their family was gay, they would be taken to mosque to have the gay beaten away, until they either ran away or pretended they were no longer gay.

As child I fancied Aladdin, but had no idea that was gay, I only realised that the word gay meant me when I was 15 and a new very attractive boy joined my football team.

Realising I was gay was probably the worst moment of my life, because I knew a few things, for example I was disgusting, I was a pervert, I deserved to be killed. I realised exactly what would happen if anyone found out, so I did what most gay male teenagers do, I got a girlfriend and made sure I always had one until I moved out, the other option that seemed sensible in solving my problem was killing myself.

I thought like most secret gays when I moved out I would have freedom and be part of this amazing community. It’s only then you realise you will carry lifelong shame and most of your community have horrendous mental health due to learning how you’re viewed from a young age. The outcry over the article of the myth of being happy and gay was largely because it touched a nerve. My ex made a short documentary about his experience of growing up gay in a very supportive family, it’s a good watch and paints a fairly typical picture of being a queer man.(www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p057nfy7) His bands management told him to hide his sexuality, suggesting if he didn’t they would fail as no one like queer people. I’m really proud thay he ignored them and is a very out queer man who release number one singles about dating men. He sets an amazing example of being a confident gay man.

Young gay men typically have risky and horrible sexual experiences because we know carrying out sex acts with other men is shameful and dirty. You also know you aren’t worthy of love, so you think you deserve to be treated like crap.

My Dad asked me if I was gay when he visited my flat when I was 23, I literally started vomiting from fear. From that moment onwards I no longer had a family, I do still see my Dad, but he has to keep it a secret. I also see a cousin who is a lesbian and has also been cut out of the family.

I’m 31, I have never held a partners had in public, or given one a peck on the cheek out of fear. I still sometimes sit in the bathroom and cry after sex as it confirms how dirty I am. I take anti-depressants and have therapy once a week. I never mention partner/s at work, I certainly never did to my football team. I am not at all unusual in the queer community.

People don’t have to like queerness, religion etc, but they do need to have the decency not to destroy the lives of children. It really isn’t thay hard to keep your mouth shut if you have nothing nice to say.

To have heard one person say something positive about homosexuality as a child would have made a huge difference.

I've never understood homophobia - as long as it involved fully consenting adults, my interest in what other people get up to in their private bedrooms in their own time is non-existent. They are affecting nobody else.

This is my view also ^^. I would extend it though to adults' sex lives generally and am quite baffled by the effort that religions put into placing various rules for acceptable sexual behaviour. Why not just see sex as something healthy and natural that should make people happy? For me the only important caveat is around safety. What is it with religions making people feel that sex/ masturbation etc is wrong?

Simon you sound like a lovely man and your post is heartbreaking. I really hope you find peace and happiness.

Wow Simon that was such an amazingly written post and sums up all my fears as a mother. My lovely kind 15 son is gay and was bullied for being gay( cyber, physical and verbal)in the first few years of secondary. Those children had only recently left primary and yes my son and I have also heard those words in primary and other derogatory homophobic language.

Even though my son has an incredibly supportive family across the board(parents, siblings and grandparents) and even though he has had a very inclusive upbringing and has never heard anything homophobic at home alongside us working hard to ensure he has self confidence he had a horrible couple of years as regards mental health. He felt shit and dirty.

His secondary school was amazing and providing counselling, mentoring, LBGT social group and a massive crackdown on homophobic language with surveys, assemblies , parents evenings and workshops. As such my son is in a good place now and no longer feels shit about himself or his sexuality.

As a parent I have been shocked at how much gay children have to go through and how much we as parents have to fight for their menta health.

I’m so angry other children and parents cause such anguish and I’m angry that much needed attempts to deal with it are being protested against in the name of religion.

Simon sending you big hugs.

N0rdicStar

Please google olly alexander growing up gay and watch it, it gives a really fantastic insight

Simon how is it that you had to hide same sex relationships from your family but they were happy for you to openly have a girlfriend? How is it that all the negatives you mention are about other people’s attitudes and nothing about such relationships being forbidden by Allah? It doesn’t make sense; you say you were brought up in a traditional family/community but all the attitudes in your post suggest a westernised upbringing.

Simon
Your story makes me sad for you. It's not right that someone should be made to feel that way.
Given the much of the push for education in schools is to reach isolated gay children and to suggest to the people who would bully other gay children that that behaviour was wrong. Given your perspective is real, how would you put that message into schools? What would have helped you?

Breeze - are you seriously suggesting that Muslim people who are gay should suppress their sexuality?

Simon - I second that your post is heartbreaking. My brother is gay and I know that he struggled to come to terms with his sexuality at first and even looked into conversion therapy. I can’t imagine how much more difficult it is for you without a loving, supporting family. He told me in hindsight that he knew he was gay from a very young age which is why I think this absolutely does need to be discussed in schools.

I already pointed out that many Muslim people would not define it as ‘sexuality’ in terms of being a permanent part of their identity

Surely gay children have a right to materials in schools that show single sex relationships are part of life. They have a right to an education which doesn’t make them feel marginalised and which educated others. They have a right to attending school where being gay isn’t a dirty word. Sadly many children and families still need educating in this area.

I’m frankly amazed at the rhetoric some of these parents have been allowed to say. When I complained re some of the language and rhetoric my son was exposed to there were exclusions.

Thank you Simon I will.

Breeze44 - are you saying that in the past people used to suppress their same sex desires and go on to marry? Now people don't so much because it's more acceptable to be gay in general - however Muslim youngsters are still suppressing their same sex desires because they don't 'jump to defining themselves' as gay or bisexual at the first sign of a same sex crush?

And amazing post simon

@vulpine that’s sort of what I’m saying, yes. I’m not sure if suppressing is the right word though, maybe ‘overcoming’.