To think this absolutely is homophobic

[HuntIdeas]

Muslim families have successfully argued for Birmingham primary schools to stop the No Outsiders programme

"Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. It's not about being homophobic... that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

AIBU to think:

1. This absolutely is a homophobic thing to say
2. There are plenty of places in the world where you would get stoned for stating you didn’t believe in Islam!

Hopefully this link works: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47613578

@BartholinsSister you must think I’m stupid if you think I don’t know that that expression is used to ridicule those who believe in God.

@ReanimatedSGB It’s not bullshit and I am not trying to force anyone to believe anything (wouldn’t be possible ) only asking why people won’t debate without using derogatory language. I came in to this thread with different beliefs and perspective to other posters but I didn’t use derogatory language to express my opinion.

@Puzzledandpissedoff
It was said that the school pupils are 98% Muslim so there would be more than a few empty seats. If the protests only represented a minority of families I don’t believe the school would have cancelled the program.
When you say it would have been useful to identify those who are being “raised in prejudice”, useful for what purpose?
As for your question, my point was that the distinction being made between moderates and hardliners is a false one, those parents can’t be described as hardliners and those that I saw interviewed were keen to point out that this is not an attack on gay people in the Uk.
I think the reason this has become a full on protest rather than quietly removing the children from the class is that there seems to be a wider context in Birmingham where people feel the school system doesn’t reflect the demographics of some communities and they are getting very frustrated with that. For example, I grew up in a large town with a large Catholic community and there were four CAtholic primary schools if you include nearby villages, and one secondary school, all state funded. Why isn’t there similar provision for the Muslim community and why are initiatives like this being introduced in predominantly Muslim areas?

Breeze44
If you choose to hold eccentric and fantastical beliefs then surely some ridicule is to be expected.
Like when I tell people about the unicorn family in the woods near me - you wouldn't believe the teasing I get!

If the protests only represented a minority of families I don’t believe the school would have cancelled the program

TBH this is one of the things that worries me; if this ghastly prejudice is held by more than a tiny minority we've got a bigger problem that was perhaps thought, and that's why I believe child protection makes it important to know if they're being raised among bigotry

This is why a balanced education's vital, to give children the wider picture of all subjects rather than a narrowed view created by any religion - it's also why I'm strongly opposed to all religious teaching in schools, be that Christianity, Islam, Judaism or anything else

And I'm sorry, but I find the parents' insistence that this "isn't an attack on gay people" very disingenuous. Doubtless some think it will play better if put like that, but it's a bit ironic coming from folk who maintain that an initiative to teach tolerance - something I'd hope we all aim for - is an attack on them. As I said upthread, it sounds worryingly like "bigotry's okay providing it's our bigotry"

@BartholinsSister my beliefs are not eccentric or fantastical. They are shared by approximately 1.8 billion people worldwide, more than double the highest estimates of atheism worldwide.
Regardless of the figures, I don't ridicule the beliefs of others so why should I expect them to ridicule mine? I might disagree and explain why but without ridicule. It's just a lazy way of objecting to someone's views without actually having to come up with an argument.

Your unicorn example is irrelevant as you don't actually believe that and nor does anyone else.

Come on @Puzzledandpissedoff you genuinely thought that only a tiny minority of Muslims would be unhappy about this kind of program being taught to their primary aged kids? Why would you think that? you know that in Muslim countries attitudes to homosexuality, sex outside marriage etc. are very different to mainstream British attitudes. You also know that the UK has pursued a policy of multiculturalism where people can raise their children according to their own beliefs, so why is this coming as a surprise?

How can you possibly claim that parents withdrawing their children from SRE is a child protection issue when the government's own proposed legislation contains exemptions on the grounds of religion not only for parents but also for teachers and religious schools?

The point about it not being an attack on gay people is that that is not the intention behind the protests nor the objective. The objective behind the protests is to retain their right to raise their children according to their beliefs.

Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have.

Of course that's a homophobic view, how can it not be?
People who hold homophobic views absolutely won't see it in themselves or accept that they are though. It's the same with racists and transphobes.
I find it utterly bizarre but a bit fascinating too.

Breeze44
If your beliefs are neither eccentric or fantastical, why do they require faith?
Flying horses, jinn, angels, invisible cosmic creators, demons - hello it's 2019!

you genuinely thought that only a tiny minority of Muslims would be unhappy about this kind of program being taught to their primary aged kids?

No, not thought - hoped, maybe. It's true that attitudes to homosexuality can be more vigorous in muslim countries, but since overall the UK isn't one of them I'd also hoped for more assimilation than sometimes seems to be the case

And the clarify, I certainly don't feel that removing pupils is a child protection issue in itself - only that it can sometimes signpost more widespread concerns around parents' attitudes and where they might lead

Totally a homophobic view, and I find it alarming that fundamentalist religious communities in the UK have grown so bold as to challenge the overall values of the country.

I've never understood homophobia - as long as it involved fully consenting adults, my interest in what other people get up to in their private bedrooms in their own time is non-existent. They are affecting nobody else.

That is the difference between homosexuals and the current transactivist ideology JAPAB - transactivism is bringing back all the ideas of strict gender behaviour and roles that feminists have always fought against, and with those strict roles they are attempting to push women out of public society again. They are forcing a choice between women's rights and trans-rights, and no way are women going to accept the kind of slavery men have visited upon us in the past again. It's a huge difference.

We urgently need a public debate about the role religion plays in our country. Religion, both Christian and Islam, is forcing its own sets of rules and concepts back into what was a secular public sphere. Eventually they will bring back the concept of Holy War too in their bloody names. If Britain is to be one country, we need one law. Religion works against that.

I don’t mind the kids learning about two men/women holding hands and being married, but I will never accept trans ideology being taught as fact. They can treat it as a religion if they do wish “some people believe boys can turn into girls” but as fact no, not will I have them compelled to go along with the facade of any James turning into Janes in the school.

"Similarly those who do not agree with transgenderism are transphobic to those that do, those who do not agree with polygamy are polyphobic to those that do, those who think child marriage wrong child-marriage-phobic to those who do not."

What's your point? People who think interracial marriage is wrong might not think of themselves as racist. But they're still racist.

2. There are plenty of places in the world where you would get stoned for stating you didn’t believe in Islam!

No, there aren't.

There are places where if you convert from Islam, you might get stoned. But there is nowhere you would be stoned for never having been a Muslim.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to claim non Muslims aren’t stoned and only those who convert or relinquish their faith are. How many Muslims in such countries actively chose to be so in the first place? If you grow up there and your parents are of faith then you just are Muslim automatically. You can’t say I’m 16 now and having looked at it a bit more I’ve decided against it.

As for live and let live. I think that’s a point being made by some of the parents. They’re not running around screaming burn them (not all anyway). They just don’t want people indoctrinating people into certain views without their permission. Which of course is ironic and hypocritical

They just don’t want people indoctrinating people into certain views without their permission.

They are very clearly saying that they don't want to 'indoctrinate' people in tolerance within the British public sphere. That they want their own traditional beliefs instead. We cannot support that, not and keep a public sphere open to all British people of any (private) religion.

Religion, both Christian and Islam, is forcing its own sets of rules and concepts back into what was a secular public sphere

I agree, but with the caveat that, as long as we have an established church, it's not nearly secular enough for my taste

We urgently need a public debate about the role religion plays in our country

Totally agree with this though

www.ummah.com/forum/forum/family-lifestyle-community-culture/islamic-parenting/12596981-forced-gay-relationship-lessons

The reason these lessons are necessary it's because some of these children may grow up to be gay with parents like this.

www.ummah.com/forum/forum/family-lifestyle-community-culture/islamic-lifestyle-social-issues/73493-if-your-brother-is-a-gay-what-do-you-do/page3

Well I’m not homophobic personally but then I’m not religious either. There seems to be a certain lefty school of thought that everyone should be tolerant about everything without acknowledging in some circumstances that certain views / faiths / morality viewpoints are completely incompatible and directly opposed with each other. I’d prefer schools to just teach facts and science. Sex education should stick to biology. Religious education should be on the basis of some people of Christian faith beleive x, Muslims believe x etc. It shouldn’t be framed as a statement of fact. I’m against religious schools of any faith but acknowledge there would be uproar about an outright ban and parents should be allowed to make certain choices with regard to their kids. I absolutely don’t think they should be state funded however and if you want to put your kids in a Catholic or Islamic school (or any other religion) then you pay for it like a private school

Unless these people also shun contraception, masturbation, heterosexual sodomy and sex where there is infertility they’re hypocrites.

Not quite true. The conjunial act is for 1. Reproduction/being open to life

1. To bond with your partner

To fulfil the first one, you are allowed to do anything with your husband as long as he finishes inside you e.g foreplay is fine. Contraception can be used for medical reasons e.g painful periods. Infertility is not a concern as sex is important to fulfil second purpose e.g to be a bonding activity.

Except gay people can also bond with their partner.

I don't deny it.

RC teaching is that all sex has to be open to life and within marriage. Marriage is classed as valid only between a man and woman.

@Breeze44

What happens if some of the children of these totally not homophobic grow up to be gay? After being told their whole lives that homosexuality is wrong, that it goes against god, that they should never be allowed to fall in love and instead marry someone who they don't love? Don't you think it's in the best interest of the children to have someone to tell them that it's okay to be gay?