To think this absolutely is homophobic

[HuntIdeas]

Muslim families have successfully argued for Birmingham primary schools to stop the No Outsiders programme

"Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. It's not about being homophobic... that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

AIBU to think:

1. This absolutely is a homophobic thing to say
2. There are plenty of places in the world where you would get stoned for stating you didn’t believe in Islam!

Hopefully this link works: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47613578

Sorry that was worded badly, it should say that the British Psychological Society is working in a context in which homosexuality was de-classified as a mental illness decades ago, not that they were the ones to de-classify it. As I'm not sure about that.

Possibly the latter Breeze

Jesus talks about fulfilling the Old Testament and there are subtle changes e.g. eating food and better outcomes for women in regard to divorce.

I think there is a lot of backsliding in Christianity.

I appreciate your cordiality on this thread and you remain calm

She has been expressing homophobia,that is by no means cordial. It’s deeply offensive and unpleasant.

Why the need for these unpleasant protests then?

Consulting parents on a policy does not mean schools need to be dictated to as regards curriculum by a bullying group of homophobic parents.If that is the case it’s a nasty loophole that needs to be closed.

I watched her talk. There are some doozys in there.

"You could have a maths question. Mr and Mr Smith want to go on honeymoon, it costs 1000 pounds, they've got 200, how much still they need?...it's a long social engineering program to corrupt our children."

"Radical feminism is out to destroy men."

"Sadly there are Muslim youths turning to same-sex relationships"

It's disgusting.

It's a woman who is a trained psychologist having stated that psychological therapy could help those experiencing same sex attraction.

Help how? Given that she thinks the fact that there are openly gay Muslim youth 'sad' I'm guessing she's not helping them come to terms with their sexuality. Conversion therapy is illegal in this country for a very good reason.

If parents want to pass their homophobia onto their children, homeschool them. They can't expect the curriculum to be changed because of their own bigoted views.

Woodhill, I guess that's something I find hard to understand. I remember in the town I used to live in there was a Christian lady who always used to come up to me in the street and ask me about why I wear hijab etc. and one time I pointed out to her that Christian women used to cover their hair in the church as well and she said 'Oh yes, I know, but we've done away with all that now!' and I was thinking, if you just keep doing away with things as you see fit, what's left of your religion?

I honestly believe this happened from quite an early stage in Christianity. Paul says in the first chapter of Galatians :' I did not immediately consult with anyone;[f] 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me'. So Paul went and started preaching Christianity before he even met Jesus' disciples, the ones who had been with him for years and heard the message he conveyed.
If you read all of Paul's epistles, you can see that he knows almost nothing of what Jesus(peace be upon him) actually did or preached. When asked questions by the early Christian communities, Paul often just gives his own opinion.

Yet Paul is the one whose writings were adopted into the official NT canon. It just leaves me wondering: Where is the message Jesus brought in all of this?

Breeze, thank you so much for your patience and considered responses (I have been reading, but not managed to post as everything has been crazy). I completely understand why you wouldn’t listen to non Muslim scholars. Also, I appreciate (and have some experience of) different interpretations between different sharia boards in different countries.

I think the discussions here are helpful for understanding. I agree with Breeze that we do not all have to share all values in order to have a positive interaction.

It feels like this thread is becoming a free-for-all in terms of making random claims without anything to back it up.

Conversion therapies are not currently illegal in the UK. According to a report in the Sun, the govt is currently planning and considering which measures can be implemented to introduce a ban. However, it is almost certainly against the principles of the British Psychological Society, hence the investigation.

There is not any loophole allowing parents to bully and dictate the curriculum. It is up to schools to decide whether it is worth pursuing a programme which the majority of parents are unhappy with in its current form.

If an agreement can't be reached, the parents have various options. Homeschooling might be one, or they might choose another school which they are happier with, or campaign for the council to set up a new school, or they might move to a different area.

Sorry, Hoover, I cross posted with you, my last post was obviously not aimed at you.
I agree and I am hoping that by having some of these discussions now, it could prevent resentment and misunderstanding building up. It is so much better to discuss things and work them out calmly wherever possible.

So not content with pushing extremist views and denying progression onto the Muslim community you want to do the same with the Christian community.

The homophobia issue really does need to be dealt with robustly as it will only lead to isolation and lack of tolerance everywhere. My dc have Muslim friends and I've always been supportive of them learning about Islam and other religions in school as we are atheist. If this doesn't get sorted properly I quite frankly won't want my gay child and his siblings anywhere near Muslim children or the teaching of Islam. I don't want them near any children who have grown up with zero voice of reason as regards homophobia. I don't want him learning about a religion which has clear homophobic followers in our country,that is so intolerant and bigoted.My son's mental health is far more important.

I feel somewhat duped. I had no idea how prevalent this was in the Muslim community.Lets just hope Breeze and others in the media will be the minority and the powers that be will see how damaging this will be and how urgently it needs sorting.

Breeze you are using this thread to preach.

For everyone here who are so annoyed with Islam, this is a genuinely question, I really don’t want to annoy anyone, but why do you care what a religion (and God?) you do not believe in suggests?

I think multiple wives sound strange and annoying (with any sense, the wives would gang up on the husband), I believe that abortion is a woman’s choice (excommunication if you are a catholic), I have seen gay people be wonderful parents (homosexuality is forbidden in some religions), but why can we not all live side by side, religious and non-religious and respects each other without trying to make them verify our life choices?

It's not my business what happens within the Christian community. I'm just explaining one of the things I find difficult to understand about the attitude of many Christians to social change and change within their religion.
It's a fact that some Christians are more traditional in their views and others are more liberal. It's not for me to encourage them to one side or the other, I have no interest in doing so nor any influence over them.
You keep saying that this needs to be dealt with, but under human rights legislation people have the right to freedom of thought and expression. You can't eliminate views that you dislike from society. Everyone has to have the resilience to be able to deal with people who think differently from them. If you personally do not wish to associate with those people that's your choice.

That was to Nordic

Because I have had my lovely, sweet,bright,kind 14 year old son want to hide in his bed due to homophobic bullying. I’ve had that same son hate himself and his sexuality because he thinks it’s dirty and he’s going to have a shit life.

His school has poured an immense amount of time into mentoring, counselling and education to stamp out homophobia and put right the damage it causes.

When you are a kid growing up and you hear one bit of negativity towards you as a person it sticks and hurts. To grow up continuously battered, hearing negative views around the world, horrific things that happen to gay people and being surrounded by homophobic language it has a massive impact. Hence the poor mental health figures in the gay community.

In a week my now 15 year old son has had to hear about the Sharia laws in Brunei and the vulnerability of the gay community in Birmingham I have had to reassure him yet again. I have continuously told him he is safe and to just keep away from Muslim countries as an adult. I have told him he is s beautiful human being who doesn’t need to apologise for his sexuality. I don’t want him feelingvthere are parts of the UK he can’t go to where he isn’t wanted, that there are UK citizens who think his sexuality is dirty and wrong, who want his sexuality kept away from their children. I don’t want children growing up without any voice of reason then expressing homophobia. We have experienced it in primary schools as many others have. Many children are gay. They deserve better. Their rights as U.K. citizens trump the rights of extreme followers of Islam.

Does that spell it out clearly enough? It has been spelt out clearly several times if you care to look.

Breeze, I think the issue with Christianity is that it was written down by ordinary people (fallible) partly in languages that not are widely and actively used. This causes barriers as some translations may not be ideal. In Islam, a scholar needs to be fluent in Arabic, few Christian Scholars are fluent in Greek, Aramaic and Latin, so we have not only the possible misinterpretations between Jesus and his fallible disciples, but also in the translation between languages. This leaves Christianity more open to interpretations where this potential early cultural bias is taken into account. There may also be contractions (again, the bible was written by fallible people) and different groups can lean on different passages and interpret them differently.

Many Muslims are British citizens too with the same rights and followers of Islam are not the only ones who have different views about homosexuality.
According to the most recent statistics I can find, approximately 20% of the UK population disapproves of homosexual relationships. Muslims make up around 5% of the UK population, meaning that most of the people with these views are not Muslim.

We don't want to bully or persecute gay people. Non-Muslim people being gay is not our business. We just don't want our children to learn about things they are too young for and which conflict with out beliefs.

Breeze Paul becomes a Christian in Acts 9 and has a spiritual experience-with Jesus so no that is not the case imo.

"Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.

Also Peter's dream is important in Acts

It's what in your heart and actions that is important not outward appearance - the head covering was cultural

Nordic: thanks for sharing about your son

And why don't you think Paul's teaching reflects Jesus's anyway?

If they are old enough to be homophobic( which they are) they are old enough to hear picture book stories re same sex penguin families.

And sorry I couldn’t care less who makes up the homophobic stats. All should be treated exactly the same. None of your beliefs re homosexuality are welcome here. I do not want my children growing up alongside others who hold such hideous beliefs re homosexuality.

Can you not see the damage you and others like yourself are doing to our society.

Ok fine, I stand corrected. There is a reason that conversion therapy is about to be banned in the UK.

You say it's non of your business if Non-muslims are gay but there are gay Muslims. Youth who grow up being told that who they are is wrong, and if these parents have their way they won't hear any conflicting opinion.

Besides, the fact that people are campaigning to have a school curriculum changed, and that half of Muslims in the uk think that homosexuality should be illegal, suggests that many people do think it's their business.

For what it's worth I'm a Muslim and I think we have to let homophobia go. I have several gay friends, it's pretty obvious they aren't gay by choice and for me the only way to practice any religion is to focus on the instructions to be kind. We live in an equal and free society, are free to practice our religion, are legally protected against discrimination etc. We can't expect that for ourselves and show bigotry to others.

Nordic star. - So sorry to read about your son's distress. I feel so ashamed.

Thank you Reti I know there are other Muslims like you and it was lovely of you to post. One of my dd’s best friends at school is Muslim, her other best friend is a very strict Catholic. She is atheist.The 3 are white, black and Asian and all anti homophobia( very supportive of dd and ds). They are an example of society as it should be. Race,religion and sexuality non issues with zero predudice. I don’t want that to go. If Im honest I think our country is in good hands. It’s sll a bit shit at the moment but when you look st the youngsters on Brexit marches and getting on together beautifully in school it is reassuring. They’ll do us proud if the good work that has been done is allowed to continue.

That's lovely to hear about your dd's friends Nordic Star. Please assure your son that we don't all think this way. I've seen a few well known Muslims on Twitter speaking against the protests.

I want the same society that you do. Im old enough to remember the days of 'P*ki bashing' when I would be spat on and told on a regular basis that I didn't belong here and should fuck off back home. There was so much racial violence around my area I would spend most of my time worrying about my family being attacked. I was a similar age to your son and hated being different and it was horrible. I feel so ashamed that my community is making kids feel this way in 2019 and we have to change.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-47817950/school-lgbt-teaching-row-gay-muslim-and-parkfield

"They say books aimed at teaching kids about characteristics protected in the Equality Act – stories some parents have protested – would have helped them growing up."

Interesting video, highlights why these lessons really are necessary.

How many times do I have to point out that nobody was campaigning to change the national curriculum. The protests were about a specific programme in a specific school.
Nordic, the fact that you think you can eradicate people’s beliefs and refuse to live alongside them shows that you are much more extremist than me. One of the ‘British values’ you mentioned earlier is tolerance for others’ beliefs.
Young children at 4, 5, 6 years old who are using gay as an insult have no understanding of what it means, it’s just a word they are repeating.