To think this absolutely is homophobic

[HuntIdeas]

Muslim families have successfully argued for Birmingham primary schools to stop the No Outsiders programme

"Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. It's not about being homophobic... that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

AIBU to think:

1. This absolutely is a homophobic thing to say
2. There are plenty of places in the world where you would get stoned for stating you didn’t believe in Islam!

Hopefully this link works: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47613578

As opposed to what? How does that contradict the idea of being free to do what is best for her?

Yes, it is homophobic. The kids were not given gay sex manuals ffs! The programme is precisely to stop getting new generations of bigoted homophobes like their parents.

YANBU.

in fairness, this sort of attitude is no worse than where 'Christian' culture was say 20 or 30 years ago.

everything crossed that Muslim culture is genuinely only 20 or 30 years behind the times & that things will change within that sort of timescale. education like this, together with suppor for gay members of those communities, is exactly what's needed to make this happen.

Breeze, you literally said that no woman would want it, how on earth dare you speak and decide what a whole people want?! It’s those bigoted views that prevent women being treated like equal human beings.

Yes, it is homophobic. The kids were not given gay sex manuals ffs

This is the bit that has me as well - the way some people are going on (in general) you get the impression that it's teaching them about sexual relationships!
How the hell is it if it's literally a book that mentions someone having two daddies or two mummies?
It doesn't go into it any deeper than that, surely? It's adults sexualising it FFS, not the children who'll just see the two dads/mums and think, "ah OK" or more than likely not even register and they're just characters in a book.
For someone who does have same sex parents though, surely it's a good thing to see that there family set up is seen as normal too?
Teaching tolerance of others is a good thing and less chance of being full of hate/fear/ignorance when adult.

Simon I am talking about what is generally the case. Polyandry is much rarer than both polygyny and monogamy, and it is usually done in order to limit population growth and keep land within families in areas where resources are scarce, rather than being the woman’s choice.
Pointing that out doesn’t make me bigoted and to be honest I am getting more than a little tired of men like you telling practising Muslim women like me what we should be thinking and feeling with regards to women’s rights.
So yes I do dare to stand up for the truth and I do dare to stand up for my legal rights in this country.
And while you’re so keen to challenge my posts, perhaps you could also provide some evidence to back up your claim that sex selective abortion is widespread enough across various Muslim countries to affect the overall demographic.

Only a controlling bigot decides what an entire sex can do, you’re the one telling all women what they can do, no one else has.

You’re not even reading my posts. I am not talking about what anyone can or can’t do, except in terms of mentioning the Islamic rulings that millions of women choose to follow. I’m talking about what is already happening. How many countries in the world allow women to marry multiple partners currently?

Just read an article online, complaints were mainly about teaching about changing genders "that girls can become boys"

A woman would not want to have multiple husbands nor would it be in her best interests

You talk about women like one big lump, all thinking the same. How on earth can you deduce that a woman would not want that?
Some might!
Not me, one husband does my head in enough most days but surely you get my point. We're not all the same.
Though what this has to do with the fact that it is homophobic to not accept/want your children exposed to the knowledge of gay relationships I'm a bit unsure

Teaching about homosexuality I agree is makes sense it's natural. but I wouldn't be happy for my kids to be learning about trans identities (I don't know what the exact term is ), especially not at primary age.

You have no legal fight to dictate what is taught on the national curriculum, to demand what you don’t like be pulled or for society to ignore your homophobia.

Pull your kid out of sex Ed, quit whining and let the rest of reasonable society get on with educating our children. Not hard.

I deduce it from the fact that very few societies have had such a system, and even fewer of those if any were based on women’s desire for it. Nor are there any significant campaigns for that type of marriage to be available, even though many countries have active women’s rights campaigns. It doesn’t mean that literally not one single woman would want it, but it’s rarely heard of.
If you follow the whole thread you can see that it went from talking about the protests to asking about religion and the law in Islam, which led to a discussion on sharia courts, which led to a mention of the Casey review which I criticised in terms of the type of language used, giving its treatment of the issue of polygamy as an example. So then people started discussing polygamy. So not directly related, but the conversation just went that way.

Thank you Breeze. I still find it hard to understand why you never question your religion particularly with women not being treated equally. It sounds like the cake and eat it metaphor for the men and how can any woman reeled cherished in this situation if they are competing with other women.

Often there are more women due to war and living longer.

As a Christian I will question things in the bible.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47799892

*In a talk, held in Birmingham and published online, she made reference to protests at Parkfield Community School and claimed sex education in the UK was "potentially sexualising" children, "redefining traditional families" and creating "confusion" that could lead to "psychological damage, spiritual damage and also physical harm".

In another, she said the lessons were part of a concerted effort of "queering the Muslim community" and called being transgender a "mass delusion".

She also said "work psychologically or in a mental health capacity" can help Muslims who are attracted to the same sex.*

I wonder what this "help" entails.

Help is generally being beaten until you become heterosexual, or you are sent ‘home’ and your community and family never mention you again.

@woodhill I have questioned the inequality of women in Islam, hence I'm now atheist. My husband and family are not aware of my apostasy, my children are and have left the choice of religion to them. My boys disagree with the inequality of women, but still affiliate with Islam. It's their choice. Same with my daughter.

rattus, you can't directly compare Christian and Muslim culture like that. In countries like the UK, Christian culture has changed dramatically. The actual number of practising Christians has declined, there are churches being sold off left right and centre, in many churches most of the congregation are elderly unless the church is in an area with a practising Christian ethnic minority group.
Within Christianity, new movements like Protestant liberalism, Catholic Modernism, Feminist Theology etc. mean that many Christians have become much more liberal both in their practice and in their interpretation of their religion.
The small group of conservative Christians have similar views to Muslims on issues like this.
These radical changes have not been happening within the Muslim community and it is quite patronising to suggest that Muslims just need a bit of 'education' to change their views. Many Muslims are educated people: doctors, surgeons, university lecturers etc. They are well aware of what others in society think but they have their own beliefs.

Well it’s the clash of minorities or vulnerable people’s rights.

If you are a gay woman, forget it!!!!

There is a real struggle ahead and I think we are going backwards

Nordic, I have never claimed a legal right to dictate the National Curriculum, and you will not find any post of mine claiming it. As for demanding what you don't like to be pulled, parents can't demand it, but they do have the right to be consulted by schools over the content of SRE and have their concerns taken on board. As for society ignoring homophobia, I have no idea what this means but it's pretty obvious that anyone publicly protesting or making public statements is doing the opposite of wanting to be ignored; rather they are making their voice heard.

I have actually argued consistently for parents simply removing their children from the classes, and I'm certainly not whining about anything.

Those 'radical changes' happened over years. It's not a leap of faith (scuse pun) to hope that kind of 'dilution' might also happen to Islam in this country.

*radical changes in Christianity referring to earlier post

Woodhill we can ask questions about our religion in the sense of gaining more knowledge and understanding about it, and we can ask for clarification of things we don't understand or any misconceptions we might have. But we don't question our religion in the sense of challenging it or thinking that it's wrong.

We believe that Allah knows everything and has perfect wisdom, therefore all of the Islamic laws are in our best interest. If there is a ruling that we don't understand, we can ask about the wisdom behind it. In some cases the wisdom behind a ruling is known, in some cases it is not known, because our human knowledge is imperfect while Allah knows everything. We have complete trust that Allah would never order us to do something which is bad for us.

As for men taking on a second wife being like having cake and eating it, it is not just about enjoyment. It's a big responsibility. He has to take on financial responsibility for both wives and any children they might have, and it's an obligation for him to ensure he is fair to both of them. This is probably another reason why there is less polygamy these days; it's difficult for many men to take that responsibility on.

It's normal for women to be jealous of their husband's other wives, but being in a plural marriage doesn't mean that a woman can't be cherished and loved. We see many examples of women in monogamous marriages who don't feel cherished by their husbands. It's about the attitude of the husband and his kind treatment of the wives, not about being monogamous or polygamous.

When you say you question the Bible; is that because you feel some of it has been changed by man, or because you feel it has to be interpreted differently in a modern context?

Simon, it's very obvious that the example given has nothing to do with beating. It's a woman who is a trained psychologist having stated that psychological therapy could help those experiencing same sex attraction, and that this has led to an investigation from her professional body which de-classified homosexuality as a mental illness decades ago, and so they don't believe it is something that therapy should be offered for, and so she may have breached their guidelines by saying that.

Stop talking about what is generally the case as you clearly have no idea what goes on in other Muslim communities or countries. You still haven't given any explanation as to why your community was so harsh and severe that even the suspicion of same-sex attraction would lead to an automatic beating, but at the same time so liberal and Westernised that dating a series of girlfriends didn't raise any eyebrows and public displays of affection were the norm.

Vulpine, the kind of conditions that led to such changes within Christianity don't exist within Islam or the Muslim community.
Yes, there are some Muslim individuals who might be influenced by secular ideas on morality and relationships, but these are generally not people who are very practising or knowledgeable.

Many Christians changed their approach to Scripture when it became clear that no two ancient manuscripts of the New Testament are the same, and that there are more differences between them than there are words in the New Testament. This is not the case in Islam; no such differences in manuscripts exist.

Many Christians also believe that the Bible is inspired rather than a direct revelation; i.e. there were human authors inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is not the case in Islam; we believe it was revealed by Allah word for word.

Christians believe there is a separation of church and state; there is no codified Christian system of law (although the legal systems in Western countries are usually based on Christian principles). So there is more possibility for the secular sphere to have an influence on ideas within the religion. Again, as discussed upthread this is different in Islam.

The main creed and scriptural canon of Christianity was only defined after hundreds of years of debate and church councils. Again this is different from Islam where the creed and Scripture was clear from the beginning.

So the kind of conditions that lead to radical change just don't exist in Islam.