To think this absolutely is homophobic

[HuntIdeas]

Muslim families have successfully argued for Birmingham primary schools to stop the No Outsiders programme

"Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. It's not about being homophobic... that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

AIBU to think:

1. This absolutely is a homophobic thing to say
2. There are plenty of places in the world where you would get stoned for stating you didn’t believe in Islam!

Hopefully this link works: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47613578

So gay desire is something you should overcome?

For a person who wants to obey Allah then yes.

Hoover I could probably write about a hundred pages in response to your questions. I promise I will answer in sha Allah but I might have to answer each question in separate posts over the next few days

So Islam then is inherently homophobic.

So Muslims can’t dictate what is taught in schools either. And as for your appalling statements re gay people being able to overcome their gayness it’s just appalling. So incredibly damaging for children in our state schools not to have this corrected.

My son was born gay, end of. There is no need for him to overcome anything as being gay is neither here nor there and certainly nothing to be ashamed of. Statements like this not being challenged and children not being educated properly is so so wrong.

This prevailing belief needs to be eradicated from schools,governors, teachers, children and parents. Evidently clear the program in the link is greatly needed. If I was a parent of a gay child in the Birmingham area I’d be absolutely livid. These children have a right to be educated in an area without such abhorrent views.

On talk radio this morning a muslim mother was saying that although she is not homophobic Islam does not allow sex between same sex people although accepts homosexuality. She siad therefore if her child was gay she would deal with it following her beliefs of Islam...I could only summise that the child when an adult would not be accepted and not be able to have same sex relationships when older.

To me this proves why these lessons are desperatly needed.

LGBT people are a normal part of society and the younger people get used to it the better. Instead of it being hidden as if its something to hide it should be part and parcel of the world around us.

Also to thise saying they should decude when their children learn about these things and how.....do they get disturbed when children have stories read to them like the 3 little bears as it is shaping their view of a family? Because if thats fine and a family with 2 moms or 2 dads is something to be approached with caution then yes you are homophobic.

Those sort of stories with families with 2 moms or dads are what will be taught at a young age....some people against the no outsoder programme are going on like kids are being brainwashed into being gay and getting taught all the sexual details.

If you cannot help thinking of sexual acts when people talk about stable loving same sex relationships tgen thats your own problem because i doubt very much everyone is up in arms about kids being taught sex when stories are read to the involving a straight mom and dad.

These lessons in my view are well needed and age appropriate.

Gayness can be overcome.....what a horrifying and telling statement to make. I desperately hope these lessons continue. Totally unnacceptable, damaging and outdated way of thinking. I despair.

It’s appalling the way this trust is letting itself be bullied by homophobic parents and governors. The longer these lessons are shelved the more damage is done to teens like my son. They have phones and news alerts. He will be reading today’s headlines and it sucks. I can’t protect children in Muslim families from these abhorrent views but I jolly well expect the powers that be to protect my child. They need to make it clear that these views are wrong and they won’t be bullied, pronto.

"Having gay desires is something that can be overcome"

If by "overcome" you mean people can learn to live with the desires without acting upon them, then sure. In fact people are asked to do that all the time, whether it is the not acting upon the desire to cheat, nor start a relationship with a pupil or patient. Or not to act upon a desire it would be illegal to act upon.

Of course no-one bats an eye-lid about asking people to "overcome" desires when they agree that to act upon them is wrong.

So I suppose the question is how much leeway parents should be given when they think the acting upon a particular type of desire is wrong, but they are in the minority in society.

Parents do not get to decide what is taught in state schools for very good reasons.

Cheating and having the desire for a relationship with a pupil are nothing like being gay.Unless you’re saying being gay is wrong.
And its not about having minority views. The views are abhorrent and wrong. Racism is a minority view. It is also abhorrent and wrong. Having a minority view doesn’t excuse anything, it’s still utterly wrong and shouldn’t be pandered to.

If being gay can be overcome, why do we still have gay people?

I don’t know any gay people who wouldn’t have taken some kind of pill etc to remove their gayness if it was an option.

It also means under the same token that a straight person could easily overcome their straightness and become gay.

N0rdicStar "Cheating and having the desire for a relationship with a pupil are nothing like being gay.hmmUnless you’re saying being gay is wrong. "

I am not declaring the having of any desires or attractions to be wrong.

I am saying that the acting upon a particular example of one of these will be judged wrong by some and not by others. Just wondering where the line is drawn as to when parents are allowed to want to not have their kids told 'acting upon this is fine/normal'.

It may just be that the answer is 'majority opinion/zeitgeist' decides.

But cheating is wrong, being gay isn’t.They aren’t comparable.

Nursejackie1 if the comments on the previously linked muslim forum are anything to go by, it may be that "not being accepted" is the least of the worries the young man you mentioned might have. Sadly, there were quite a few posters who considered themselves islamically justified in calling for gays to be killed

breeze you've written in favour a more traditional form of islam, preferably one not based on "western methodology", so please can I ask if you consider such a punishment to be acceptable - whether or not you'd choose it personally?

"But cheating is wrong, being gay isn’t.hmmThey aren’t comparable."

No-one is comparing the state of having an attraction/desire/orientation with an action.

Being attracted to the same sex is not wrong, being attracted to the opposite sex is not wrong, being attracted to horses is not wrong, being attracted to your neighbour's wife is not wrong. A doctor is not wrong because they find themselves attracted to a patient.

Acting upon any of these is a different type of thing. No-one is comparing examples from the former kind of thing, with examples from the latter kind.

There are morals involved with the other attractions, there isn’t with being gay. You’re just born gay,there are no decisions to be made.

So breeze, should gay people marry someone they don't love? Or just be celibate their whole life?

Cheating harms people, being in a same sex relationship doesn't.

I don't think it's wrong to act on same sex attraction but I also don't think there's any moral wrong in being attracted to patient if you are a doctor or someone else's spouse.
So there are, in my view, situations in which you should not act on an attraction.

"Some people might overcome it altogether while others still experience those desires but don’t act on them. One person might feel attracted to other men but he still has some desire for women, another person might not have any desire for women at all."

You cannot wilfully change your sexuality. It just doesn't work like that.

Haven't read the full thread, so sorry if it's been covered. There seems to be some misunderstanding earlier in the thread over the new RSE guidance. Parents can request to withdraw their children from sex education up until 3 terms before the child turns 16.

Draft government guidance published Feb 19 states there is no right to (request to) withdraw from the relationships or health part of the statutory curriculum, and that does include (in primary school) learning about different types of families and the facts they may look different to yours (eg 2 Mums, 2 Dads), which is basically what the No Outsiders programme does (from what I have seen).

Happy to stand corrected if advice published a month ago is now out-of-date.

Nothing wrong at all with having books with characters that involve 2 Mums or 2 Dads FFS.

How in this day and age do people think you can just change your sexuality?
That's like asking me to suddenly start fancying women. (I'm female, very straight.)
It wouldn't happen if it suddenly wasn't "right".

@breeze44
"The basic tenets of faith are agreed on by all. And some rulings have an established consensus on them e.g. all scholars agree that drinking alcohol is forbidden. Once a consensus is established, it is impermissible for anyone to differ from it." (don't know how to quote - sorry!)

Hi Breeze, can you tell what else is an established consensus?

I would genuinely like to know - are the death for apostates / death for blasphemer punishments established? Or not? I watched a Memri video with the Grand Sheik of Al Azhar Islamic university stating that the punishment for apostates is death - however, maybe it was just maliciously edited? I also cannot help but notice the constant mobbing ad murdering of alleged blasphemers and apostates in Pakistan and Bangladesh, and only last weekend saw a mosque in London warned about having leaflets inciting their congregation to kill Ahmadis.

@Breeze

Here is the link to the video - Sunni Islam's most prestigious university - also includes a discussion on homosexuality

www.memri.org/tv/sheikh-al-azhar-ahmad-al-tayyeb-islam-unrepentant-apostates-should-be-killed-homosexuality

I would be happy (relieved?) to be told that this view is dated and unrepresentative of Islam.