To think this absolutely is homophobic

[HuntIdeas]

Muslim families have successfully argued for Birmingham primary schools to stop the No Outsiders programme

"Morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have. It's not about being homophobic... that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

AIBU to think:

1. This absolutely is a homophobic thing to say
2. There are plenty of places in the world where you would get stoned for stating you didn’t believe in Islam!

Hopefully this link works: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-47613578

I think some Christians are tolerant of homosexuality if the person is celibate. They also think that sex outside of marriage is not right either. This is discussed in Corinthians chapter 6 & 7 in the New Testament. Paul also addresses paedophilia.

That’s good of them

Gamerwidow it is not true that there is a broad church in Islam in the sense that you mean. You are right that some people are very non practicing, but in their case many of the main influences in their thoughts don’t come from Islam at all. Those people are generally not very knowledgable about Islam and they just want to fit in in the West.
But there is nothing in Islam comparable to e.g Reform Judaism or modernist tendencies within Christianity. There are some groups who have this aim of reforming Islam but they never get into the mainstream. They are always on the fringes of the Muslim community.
I resent being labelled as an extremist. All of the Muslims I know over the past two generations in the Uk have either sent their kids to Islamic schools, homeschooled or removed their children from Re and Se lessons. They are just ordinary families not hardliners.

You can't legislate for the way people think. You can't force people who have strong religious views to think that homosexual relationships are acceptable if that's not what they believe. All you can do is legislate for the way they behave, ie you don't allow them to discriminate against people on the basis of their sexuality.

that's like saying, if you don't believe in Islam, you're Islamophobic."

No its like aayingvif you teach my child at school that Muslims exist it might make them into one and I don’t want them to know about those sort of people as it’s not what I believe is the right way to live” 🙄

I don’t know how to include a link but if you google ‘Finding a place in women’s mosques’ you can find a recent article from the New York Times about the latest attempt to set up one of these radical reforming mosques, in which there are some moments of uncharacteristic honesty about the lack of acceptance such initiatives face within the Muslim community.

Nordicstar, I’m really surprised it was compulsory for your son to take RE at GCSE level. When I was at school there were only four of us in the class. I think that making religious studies optional would be preferable to removing the opt out option for SRE

Yes of course it is homophobic.

@breeze44

Do you think being gay is a problem that can be overcome?

there is nothing in Islam comparable to e.g Reform Judaism or modernist tendencies within Christianity. There are some groups who have this aim of reforming Islam but they never get into the mainstream. They are always on the fringes of the Muslim community

While true, this has always seemed to me to be a shame - especially when we're told that much of Islamic practice is a matter of interpretation

I can see parallels with some CofE traditionalists who sneer at what they call modern, "happy clappy" christianity, but what interests me with Islam is who's to say what the right interpretation is, and whether a more liberal approach might not be best in the modern world?

You had no idea that RE was mandatory throughout primary and up to GCSE in secondary and some schools make it mandatory at GCSE.

I don’t necessarily think kids should be able to opt out of RE lessons. If they do they only learn the beliefs of their parents some of whom as we have seen in the op are extremists. I suspect some parents are as against their kids learning about other religions as they are same sex marriages.

Withdrawing your kids from schools and home schooling in the name of religion is extremist. What are you scared of? That your children might think for themselves? Many Muslims don’t do this they happily send their children to school with other faiths. and don’t demand schools withdraw education about same sexual families.

I don’t necessarily think kids should be able to opt out of RE lessons. If they do they only learn the beliefs of their parents some of whom as we have seen in the op are extremists

This is exactly how I used to feel, NOrdic, until I came to realise that the motives of religious teaching staff aren't always clear either. The many abuses already committed need no further advertisement and even in my own (non-denominational) school an extremely staunch Catholic was trusted with the subject - and quite blatantly used it to get conversions to her faith

For this reason and many more, I'd honestly rather all religion was kept in the private sphere and out of the public one ... and that does mean out, with no protected status, no preferential treatment - in fact nothing except a tolerance of everyone's right to a personal choice within the law

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-476668

He says that reading kids a book featuring two mums or dads is 'planting a seed that same sex relationships are morally fine', that being gay is a 'chosen lifestyle' and that if his child was gay it would be 'a worry and concern'. That's why these lessons are needed.

The question about what is the right interpretation of Islam is an important one. It’s not easy to give a full answer in a forum post but I will do my best to cover some of the main points.
In the past few years I have noticed a few documentaries on tv about Islam implying that, since there is no central authority in Islam comparable to the pope of Catholicism, anyone can give their interpretation of the Qur’an and the Sunnah. This is not fully true.

Anyone who wishes to interpret the Qur’an or issue legal opinions (fataawa) on the Islamic rulings on specific issues, or any other discipline within Islam, has to follow a proper process of study in order to qualify to do so.
I, for example, as an ordinary Muslima, cannot give my interpretation because I have not had training in the correct methodology to do so.
Anyone who wants to become an Islamic scholar must study with an established scholar according to Islamic methodology until that scholar gives them a certificate indicating they have attained the necessary level of knowledge, whether that’s in an Islamic university, a teaching mosque or elsewhere.
The conditions of entry for Islamic universities are usually high. E.g the university in Fes in Morocco specifies that all applicants must have memorised the entire Qur’an as well as some Islamic texts. Other universities will specify memorisation only for those who wish to specialise in interpretation of the Qur’an. All scholars should have a good knowledge of the Arabic language as well as some knowledge of all the Islamic sciences other than their specialism.

Then, they have to work within the correct methodology for their specialism and this is something that all the scholars have done and passed on to their students.
There are some issues where scholars have differences of opinion. For example, a famous difference of opinion is about the wearing of niqab. Since the beginning of the schools of Islamic jurisprudence, scholars have differed over whether it is recommended or obligatory to cover the face and hands.
Also, as time goes on, new issues come up like organ donation or abortion and people ask scholars to give rulings about them, so they have to issue opinions on new issues by looking at the established Islamic principles and rulings that can be applied to these issues.
However, there are some issues on which there is no difference of opinion. The basic tenets of faith are agreed on by all. And some rulings have an established consensus on them e.g. all scholars agree that drinking alcohol is forbidden. Once a consensus is established, it is impermissible for anyone to differ from it.
When it comes to these so-called liberal mosques and reform movements, their leaders are not proper Islamic scholars. Usually, they have studied Islam in Western universities. But that means they have studied Islam according to Western methodology not Islamic methodology. So their interpretation of the Qur’an is inadmissible and their fataawa are inadmissible. Even without knowing that, it is clear to most practising Muslims that what these people are doing is not correct. E.g. the ‘reformers’ I mentioned earlier want to set up a mosque where women can pray without hijab and where a female imam will lead a mixed congregation. Most Muslims know that this going against the way that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) taught us to pray, and that this innovated way of praying is invalid. That’s why these groups don’t gain acceptance among most Muslims.
I hope that’s clear, please let me know anything I should clarify.

For those saying children are too young for the lessons, it might be worth looking at the actual lesson plans:
www.equalitiesprimary.com/resources.html
It's hardly an instructive lesson on homosexual congress. While I believe that most protesting against it have been directed to do so by community leaders rather than being enraged by its actual content, you do have to question what sort of culture would be threatened by the notion of children being taught that those who are different should be treated as equals.

@breeze44

Do you think being gay is a problem that can be overcome?

I answered that question already up thread to another poster

So anyone who doesn't agree with your particular interpretation of Islam isn't a real muslim?

I don't see where you answered that question.

woodhill I think most mainstream Christians in the UK, are more than ‘tolerant’ of homosexuality.
It’s not a thing to be tolerant of...it’s just normal life.

DS is 2 and can understand that his friend has 2 mummies, nothing age inappropriate about it.

Breeze, I think your explanation about the Islamic Scholars is excellent, especially how it needs to be several Islamic Scholars debating an issue and that they need to have an excellent knowledge of Arabic and of course the Koran as I believe (and please forgive my ignorance if I am mistaken in this), some verses of it may appear contradictory to a non scholar?

However, I feel uncomfortable that you are dismissing “western scholars”. Do you believe that they cannot interpret the Koran? From the experience of doing business in the Middle East, the interpretation of the different scholars vary even between betweeen different countries in the Middle East (in regards to structuring of certain products for example) and there are vast differences in the interpretation between the scholars in the Middle East vs. Morocco vs for example Malaysia. I would assume that these all also differ to what you refer to as “Western Scholars” . Would it not be more accurate (and less dismissive) to say that each group follows the sharia interpretation of their own scholars?

Also (and please forgive me if I am misinterpreting anything), I believe that a concern may be that some sharia interpretations are more strict among expats in the UK than in the country their families originally is from?

It is worth noting the the Muslim Council of Britain at this stage has no comments on this education programme.
It states it is 'listening to the views of Muslim communities and in touch with multi-faith campaign and awareness-raising groups on this subject'.
One would have thought if the teaching was that contrary to the teachings of Islam they would be leading the boycott which they very much aren't.

An interesting point, gamerwidow ...

Gamerwidow that just means that they are still in the process of gathering information and viewpoints before they decide what approach to take. If they put out a statement without full information about the situation and the legislation relating to it they would be torn to shreds. As for saying that not leading the boycott means they don’t think the teaching is contrary to Islam, that’s not necessarily the case at all. There are many things which are legal and common in the Uk which are contrary to Islamic law, we can’t protest them all. Alcohol is forbidden in Islam, we don’t start demanding that pubs and off licenses be shut down. I already stated that Muslims have no authority over non-Muslims in their own country.

Sheogorath I already stated that many Muslims would not express it as being gay. Having gay desires is something that can be overcome but you can’t generalise about it as every situation is different. Some people might overcome it altogether while others still experience those desires but don’t act on them. One person might feel attracted to other men but he still has some desire for women, another person might not have any desire for women at all.