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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To let you know thought crime is now a thing

317 replies

CalliopeMeansMusic · 20/03/2019 09:41

Apologies for the odious DM link, but this has really chilled me.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6827459/Catholic-journalist-questioned-caution-police-misgendering-someones-daughter.html

A woman is being investigated by police and faces a two year jail sentence for allegedly misgendering Jackie Green during a tweet. What has the world become when we cannot state simple, biological facts without fear of prosecution? And why do the beliefs of the mother and daughter (that they are now living as a member of the opposite sex) trump the beliefs of Caroline Farrow? I am all for protecting vulnerable people from hate crimes, but this is not a hate crime, and makes a mockery of people facing real discrimination and fear.

On the plus side, I may move to Surrey; clearly its ridiculously safe if the police have all that time to investigate this!

OP posts:
RepealTheGRA · 20/03/2019 13:54

What did Caroline do with regards to alfie’s army? I seem to have missed her involvement with that?

Usernumbers1234 · 20/03/2019 13:56

Here we go again, with the worst campaign ever

This should have been a campaign of awareness, make the general public aware of the huge implications of self ID and let them come to their own conclusions, a vast, vast majority of people would have been entirely in agreement that this was too much too fast and at the very least significant further consultation was needed.

But they didn’t do that did they. They let a load of self-promoting, borderline insane, people take the lead on the frontline.

Just spend some time googling this Caroline Farrow, she’s an extremist who justifies her views with religious nonsense. She is NOT the person you want on the front line on national TV, nor are many of the fan favourites in the feminism boards with their constant unprofessional public meltdowns on social media.

You’ve already got the people strongly in favour of your case you don’t need to preach to the choir, you need to go out of the church and make the person in the street aware, manic irrational people like Caroline Farrow just put off the middle ground from either side and do the campaign infinitely more harm than this. The middle ground don’t want to take a position on either side, because both extremes are dominated by buffoons like Farrow.

The public don’t give a shit about whether someone should be called he she or they, they think whatever floats your boat I’m happy with. The public would care a hell of a lot more vehemently if the focus was on shared spaces and not a load of student union twaddle about the worlds most ineffective boycott (Ocado share price still rising like a rocket), stickers and twitter wars. Never seen a more easily winnable campaign be carried out so horrifically poorly, and I say that as someone who is on your side.

AstonishedFemalePersonator · 20/03/2019 13:56

Humans cannot change sex.

AstonishedFemalePersonator · 20/03/2019 14:00

They let a load of self-promoting, borderline insane, people take the lead on the frontline.

It's easier to say TRAs.

HTH.

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 20/03/2019 14:05

babycham are you saying that women are concerned about 'losing their identity to outsiders'?

Because I am a woman, which is simply a fact - NOT an identity. I don't identify as a woman, my DD doesn't identify as a girl. I am an adult human female, she is a juvenile human female.

No identity and no gender involved. Just objective biological sex. Which you can't change.

Susie Green took her child to Thailand at aged 16 and had him (SG's usage, so please don't delete - girls don't have testicles so you can't have a girl castrated, and at that stage Jackie was legally male) castrated (ie removal of the testicles as part of sex reassignment surgery). That is a fact. Susie Green has referred to her child as 'he' publicly, more than once. Also a fact. Susie Green acted illegally in taking Jackie to the US for cross sex hormones at 12, and to Thailand at 16. A fact. The only thing that isn't fact but a matter of opinion is whether or not all of that counts as abuse. A lot of people would think it does, and Susie Green doesn't get to use the police to silence people who don't agree with her actions that she has made a career out of.

I don't have to support Caroline's stance on everything to 100% support her on this, as I would support any journalist being policed in this manner.

Usernumbers1234 · 20/03/2019 14:13

@astonishedfemalepersonator

You see, you’ve just proved my point. Yes that’s exactly what many of them are, but equally it’s what many of those at the other end of the case are. It’s become a campaign of extremists, working alone for their own agendas.

Had Parker, Farrow, Hatchet et al been half as concerned with the actual campaign as they are about raising their own profiles this would have all been done and dusted months ago.

But no, we just have two echo chambers at either end of the scale and the rest of us throw our arms up in the air and leave you to it.

AstonishedFemalePersonator · 20/03/2019 14:21

I see that The Guardian have now picked up the case.

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/20/catholic-journalist-investigated-by-police-after-misgendering-trans-woman

RepealTheGRA · 20/03/2019 14:22

So what about people like WPUK and FPFW Usernumbers1234 what do you think about them?

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 20/03/2019 14:26

And this is while we have paedophiles getting suspended sentences. Angry
Also I thought the police were struggling with cuts. Funny it miraculously appears when anyone unintentionally upsets a snow flake.

PencilsInSpace · 20/03/2019 14:50

There isn't 'the campaign' though Usernumbers, just a fuckton of women and some men coming from across the political spectrum, from many religions and none.

It's not one campaign, it's many, with many more people speaking out while never being a part of any 'campaign' at all. People are coming from all sorts of starting points and arriving at the common realisation that gender ideology is harmful and the acompanying activism is frightening and totalitarian.

Of course we would never have had 'this' (whatever that means) 'done and dusted months ago', even if we all marched lockstep behind WPUK. TRAs have invested decades and outrageous amounts of money in pushing their agenda worldwide and they've done it so quietly most people are only just realising what's happening.

I disagree with Caroline Farrow on lots of stuff but I agree with what she tweeted. Because of Susie Green's misguided actions those tweets have now been read out live on the BBC and published in the national press, so they've reached a huge audience.

I couldn't have made that happen. Could you?

LimeKiwi · 20/03/2019 14:51

Thought crime isn't "a thing". Hate crime is though.

AstonishedFemalePersonator · 20/03/2019 14:54

Thought crime isn't "a thing".

It is fast becoming one, thanks to TRAs.

ReanimatedSGB · 20/03/2019 15:09

Hmph. This is all getting a bit like that cock Yaxley Lennon ragepissing about how he's being censored in the name of 'political correctness'. There seem to be a few anti-trans people who go out of their way to be as offensive as possible in the hope that someone will report them and then they can cry about how they're being persecuted for 'thought crime' rather than scaremongering bullshit.

Usernumbers1234 · 20/03/2019 15:14

@repealtheGRA

I think very positively of WPUK, there’s is a well through through proposition and they have been smart enough to disassociate themselves from the self publicists I’ve referred to. They could work a little harder to improve their profile, I don’t think they are getting to quite enough of the middle ground.

FPFW less so, they play to the gallery too much, lots of stuff that’s not going to convert the middle ground and only appeals to its existing support base. Too much focus on niche incidents that don’t affect the majority, too little focus on the bigger issues that do.

Usernumbers1234 · 20/03/2019 15:20

@pencilsinspace

Valid points. I couldn’t have made that happen, but I’m pretty sure someone that wasn’t Caroline Farrow could have. That’s my point, she’s not wrong but she’s not the right person, she’s marmite. And this issue isn’t about converting marmite eaters, it’s peope that just want butter on their toast and all the current public figureheads do is turn those people off.

Everyone that has referenced her on this thread has said “I don’t agree with most of what she says, but I agree with this” - that’s the kind of thing some (not me) say about Yaxley-bloody-Lennon, and that’s not what you want out front in a campaign that needs the middle ground, not someone with a history of tagging herself to every cause she can find with a bizarre set of values behind her.

Limensoda · 20/03/2019 15:24

No one should harass, bully or attack someone who is transgender. THAT is a hate crime, however, being of the opinion that someone can't change sex or not believing a person who was born male cannot become female is NOT a hate crime or any other sort of crime.
This ridiculous action doesn't help anyone who is transgender.

Limensoda · 20/03/2019 15:26

not believing a person who was born male cannot become female is NOT a hate crime

Sorry,

not believing a person who was born male CAN become female is NOT a hate crime

YetAnotherSpartacus · 20/03/2019 15:34

Is there a link to the actual tweets? From what I can gather Farrow referred to jackie green as 'he' even though jackie prefers she. I mean, why would you? It may well be true, but it would also upset jackie, who seems quite a vulnerable individual, and it would obviously upset susie - who has form for being litigious. Not a hate crime in my view but obviously designed to be provocative. And yes, farrow was a big part of Alfie's army and she supports protestors at family planning clinics. Check out her blog.

WeepingWillowWeepingWino · 20/03/2019 15:37

they are in the Mermaids statement linked to above.

Caroline's actions with regard to other issues are irrelevant to this.

Pimmsnlemonade · 20/03/2019 15:37

This should have been a campaign of awareness, make the general public aware of the huge implications of self ID and let them come to their own conclusions, a vast, vast majority of people would have been entirely in agreement that this was too much too fast and at the very least significant further consultation was needed.

But they didn’t do that did they. They let a load of self-promoting, borderline insane, people take the lead on the frontline.

Nobody has elected Caroline Farrow to lead the anti-sex-self-ID campaign though - She's just doing and saying what she believes in the way she wants to, as are other people.

And if you think if women had just been nice and sensible and politely put forward our views things would have been different you really have no idea of what's been going on over the last few years. Women have been attacked, threatened with rape and murder, their employment threatened, their families threatened, meetings closed down, been surrounded by masked men and their views not represented in the media until recently (on the back of a tremendous amount of work by some brave, intelligent women).

Take Women's Place UK and Fair Play for Women which are both incredibly sensible, measured organisations - WPUK have faced enormous challenges and threats to their meetings, up to and including bomb threats www.hastingsobserver.co.uk/news/police-investigating-bomb-threat-against-hasting-meeting-1-8539357 While women handing out politely worded Fair Play For Women leaflets about a (then current) government consultation had the police called on them twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1048622497254572033 Police response time was 5 minutes with 4 officers and a horse being deployed. On the other hand, I know in my local area a woman who had to wait over a week for an officer to be speak to her about a very serious sexual assault. A different area but my local force are similarly woke and actual assaults - particularly against women - seem to be way down their list of priorities.

Pimmsnlemonade · 20/03/2019 15:39

Clicky link:
www.twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1048622497254572033

PencilsInSpace · 20/03/2019 15:49

The tweets are included in the Mermaids statement. Susie says it wasn't the misgendering that was the issue.

Until the tweets were read out on Victoria Derbyshire this morning, Caroline Farrow had no idea which tweets had been reported because she uses a tool to delete anything over 2 weeks old and the police didn't tell her, they just said it was for misgendering.

Surrey police say they are continuing to investigate.

With all that in mind, I'm not sure it was wise for Susie Green to publicise the tweets as she has done.

Also I think it's an own goal. The tweets are not polite but they are accurate.

Pimmsnlemonade · 20/03/2019 16:05

I just make one post referring to the problems women have in trying to meet or discuss this issue and I receive this:

chng.it/7kc4SL2y9p

Another local council refusing to allow women to meet to discuss sexism and racism because of, in the words of the Mayor, the "very real likelihood of harm" to women trying to attend. Those making the very real threats of harm are not tackled, no action is taken to enable women to engage in the political arena without the risk of violence - Women are the ones who shouldn't be meeting because they might 'get themselves assaulted'.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 20/03/2019 16:34

Actually, I think the tweets are pretty off. The person in question - jackie- is a living, breathing human being and now an adult. They have not complained about what their mother did so whereas I don't think it was best practice it also seems to be a victimless crime. And it couldn't be nice for jackie to read about it that way. Again, why be so provocative? I also not sure that Twitter is the best place for such debate. Not a hate crime, but not particularly nice either.

Xenia · 20/03/2019 16:40

It might be better if everyone stayed off twitter. It tends to leafd to trouble for everyone although I accept it ia useful tool particularly in spreading real news at times.

I don't know enough about these cases to know if the mother of the trans child chose to put the details in the public domain or not (the mother probably did). The GDPR data rules alow children to take decisions about how their data is procsesed from about age 13 and there is a special new right that when the child turn 18 they also have a right to have data removed about them in most cases even if they consented to it whilst they were under 18.

My own view is that children should not have this kind of surgery or drugs and should take decisions for themselves once an adult but that individual parents should have the right to decide in relation to their own child within reason as long as the child is not damagd in the same way we let parents decide children with be Jehovah's witnesses but not that a toddler will die because the parent refuses for it blood transfusions.