Donor consent law is being changed...

[flirtygirl]

Aibu to have expected more information before they changes the law, did they do a consultation? I feel miffed that it is now going to be deemed consent and you have to opt out.

But what if the system is down or the opt out which is digital and online, did not get stored properly? What about when you move and change address? Do you have to tell every medical practitioner manually as well?

There is no info it seems on what this will mean. If you have info or any helpful links please let me know, thanks

Bowl, you need to post your question for NHS transplant people on the guest post linked on the MNHQ post.

Cheers teyem - done.

The way some on here are talking about people's bodies, stripping them of their humanity and treating them as spare parts, is everything that worries me about my organs being harvested. I really hope the medical staff in these situations have more respect for people than some of the self styled morally superior posters on this thread.

Break I'm so sorry, your posts are heartbreaking.

BreakYourselfAgainstMyStones, thank you. I fail to see why not actually being asked doesn't mean I can't think back to how I felt at the time and give a good answer as to how I would have responded.

If you set internal limits on how people can act in particular situations (excluding psychopathy) you're going to be repeatedly disappointed at best, horrified at worst.

I don't want to go into the precise details but they were lucid for a number of days even after it was clear they were very unlikely to get better. If they weren't the most intelligent person I've had the pleasure to know, they were certainly the wisest and took the information as if they'd been informed about some coming rain before a planned picnic, reasoning that being upset wouldn't change reality to accommodate them. It would be no more reasonable for me to scold someone receiving similar news who'd become upset over it than it would be for someone to have scolded my friend at the time or claim their composed reaction gave a lack of validity to their feelings.

Please don't pretend to be clairvoyant regarding my particular feelings under a given circumstance, particularly when I have experienced one very close to it. You're bordering on setting terms on what feelings I'm allowed to feel. I certainly don't dismiss yours.

Bluestitch, please could you cite a message where someone claims moral superiority in expressing the view that, as you put it, a body is 'spare parts'.

When you have lived a day in the shoes of any person waiting for their 'gift' then I'm sure you will think differently.

I've had an organ transplant I have been one of the 6500 people waiting every year for an organ.

My illness came from nowhere and I was given months to live when I got my gift. Without it my children would not have a mummy and my DH no wife. I would be dead.

My point is, don't donate YOUR organs if you don't want to. You have the choice.

You don't have have to be someone's hero like my donor was.

Dear god. There's a fuckton of emotional appropriation on this thread.

I can't think back to how I felt at the time and give a good answer as to how I would have responded.

Because thinking about a situation and being in it are totally different.

I could try and predict now, with a cool calm head and rational thoughts, how I would react in any situation. It's easy to do that. The truth is unless you are actually there and experiencing it you just don't know.

particularly when I have experienced one very close to it

I'm not minimising your loss, and, once again, I'm very sorry that you have to miss your friend, it's heart breaking

Having a friend, who wasn't in the position of donating their organs die, and having a family member who you are next of kin for die and you have to make the choice to donate or not, are 2 very, very different things. It's not so easy to just switch off, it really isn't.

You're bordering on setting terms on what feelings I'mallowedto feel.

Like quite a lot of the people on here who are so pro organ donation they don't care about the way the people who are opting out feel, or the families of people who decided against donating.

Like quite a lot of the people on here who are so pro organ donation they don't care about the way the people who are opting out feel, or the families of people who decided against donating.

Spot on.

The truth is unless you are actually there and experiencing it you just don't know.

Having a friend, who wasn't in the position of donating their organs die, and having a family member who you are next of kin for die and you have to make the choice to donate or not, are 2 very, very different things

I'm also not minimising what you felt at the time, it's all about perspective. From mine, after they passed, they were wheeled off to be prepared for cremation, for me, that's functionally the same from my point of view as them being wheeled off for organ collection, except the latter potentially has a longer delay before the funeral. I realise this may seem callous, horrifying even but I just don't personally perceive those as differing outcomes with respect to the person who's passed away. A body, to me, is more of a reminder than a representation. I miss the person they were.

I believe you might feel differently if you'd ever witnessed an autopsy or the preparation of a body for burial/cremation (though I acknowledge you might not, I don't personally know you).

Like quite a lot of the people on here who are so pro organ donation they don't care about the way the people who are opting out feel, or the families of people who decided against donating.

Which is why I specified both sides. It's a consequence of the inherent selfishness in the human mind: we place a higher priority on the lives and well-being of ourselves and those we interact with regularly (the more frequent the interaction, the higher the priority) as well as those we are genetically related to than we do on strangers. While the expression of these feelings can be reduced, the feelings themselves are always there in some form.

In this case, this selfishness can be expressed to the point where individuals are willing to discount the value of the survival of others to spare their personal feelings over someone who has passed or, in the reverse case, dismissing those feelings in the interests of their own survival.

• To be as unambiguous as possible, I am using 'selfishness' in this context as a descriptor, not a criticism. -

@Gronky yes I did witness organ donation first hand as well as lucky enough to get an organ myself.

My family member saved 4 different people's lives many years ago. All the recipients are more than 15 years post now.

It brings comfort to my aunty and uncle in knowing that their child has allowed 4 more people to carry on with theirs and make new memories with their families.

I'm not forcing people to choose organ donation as I've said many times in this thread; Don't donate your organs if you don't want to.

Apologies, AppleDump, the comment about witnessing that or similar was addressed to BreakYourselfAgainstMyStones and others who cannot comprehend someone feeling anything other than overwhelming pain at the prospect of organ harvesting. My comment regarding organ donation proponents was also not addressed to all of them, merely those who have apparently been dismissive of those being pained by having to provide consent (examples of which I'm struggling to find on this thread but I may have missed them).

Wow! I knew nothing of this! How are you supposed to know??

I am a registered donar and have shared my wishes with my family.
But I massively disagree with this change-over and the lack of communication about it!!
Making a change like this should be advertised/plastered EVERYWHERE, so that ALL people have the chance to be fully informed and act on their personal decision, whatever it may be.

Break, just don't stick your hand in the crazy.

@Gronky no worries

I'm also not minimising what you felt at the time, it's all about perspective.

Quite honestly, when you're talking about losing a young child, you have no idea what perspective is. That's not competitive grieving, that's just fact. Child loss is a completely different kettle of fish. It has no sides, it is so far beyond any other experience in the whole world. The level of emotional appropriation shown to bereaved parents on this thread continues to astound and disgust me and says far, far more about those doing it to try to demonstrate their moral superiority than anything else on this thread.

Pass the bucket.

from my point of view as them being wheeled off for organ collection

That just shows that you have no comprehension. At that point they are still breathing, warm, still look very much alive, you are still able to hug them and hold their hand and talk to them, and somewhere, deep inside, you hope among all hope that they can hear you and they will open their eyes.

Your friend dying was difficult, I get that, I have had friends who have died as well, but to have your child lying there still looking as though they are going to open their eyes, then being wheeled away and you know that they are going to take their last breath (even though it's on a ventilator) without you being there is an absolutely different experience.

You really are minimising how hard this whole process is, and it is fucking hard.

People can be 'selfish' about their own body, or the wants and needs of their family at a particularly distressing time. There is nothing wrong with that.

If they choose to give the GIFT of organ donation then that is a beautiful thing to do, if they choose not to then an informed choice has been made and they have chosen to do what they can to help them get through the coming minutes, hours and days and that is very important too.

doing it to try to demonstrate their moral superiority

I've seen this a claim made a few times throughout the thread. Could you please cite one example of someone claiming that their less intense feelings around this issue are 'morally superior'?

You really are minimising how hard this whole process is, and it is fucking hard.

I'm really not, I'm not dismissing your feelings or claiming mine are inherently better. I'm not saying yours are wrong. All I'm saying is that I disagree with your imposition of how I must feel in order to be a person, as you put it, 'whose opinion deserves airtime'.

People can be 'selfish' about their own body, or the wants and needs of their family at a particularly distressing time. There is nothing wrong with that.

I completely agree and realised how the term 'selfish' could be misconstrued which is why I explicitly stated that I was using it as a descriptor, not a criticism.

I have not, for one second, imposed upon you how you should think or feel, I have not criticised your feelings. I have criticised your (and others) imposition as to how other people should feel or whether their feelings are valid or not.

Moral grandstanding on all sides will kill any constructive discussion.

Pick a page, any page.

The people who are shouting the loudest about being pro organ donation are full of it.

Acting like those opting out are murderers, are not worthy to receive a transplant for them or their child, even you're at it with your oh so blase attitude that the body is nothing more than a reminder and that you would be absolutely fine even though you have never been in that position yourself. The moral superiority is rife here, interestingly from people who have never been in the position to have to make that choice.

The people who are shouting the loudest about being pro organ donation are full of it.

Thank you for clarifying, I suppose the confusion was down to a difference in understanding as to the precise meaning of the term. Apologies for the confusion.

even you're at it with your oh so blase attitude that the body is nothing more than a reminder and that you would be absolutely fine even though you have never been in that position yourself

I was explaining why I have a certain set of feelings. I took pains at every stage to state that those were why I believe I wouldn't have as much of an issue as other people in being consulted as NoK, rather than being how I thought others should feel. If that constitutes a sense of 'moral superiority' and I am understanding your personal definition correctly, I would say your perception of my explanation betrays more about your personal doubts than it does about my stance.

I try to be civil as a general rule and would redouble my efforts towards someone in your circumstances but you're certainly proving to be quite the challenge, especially as the only personal beliefs of yours which I have disagreed with you on are those which you are imposing upon me (though you are by no means alone in doing so, both for people who agree with you and for people who have directly disagreed with your beliefs).

*All I'm saying is that I disagree with your imposition of how I must feel in order to be a person, as you put it, 'whose opinion deserves airtime'.

What have I said your opinion doesn't deserve airtime

All I am saying, and will keep on saying is that you do not know how you would feel or react if you were actually in that situation. You genuinely dont.

Two of my children have died and I reacted differently both times, unexpectedly both times, after my son died I probably did think I know how I would have reared when my daughter died years later, I was absolutely wrong.

I could sit here and say that if I was to get mugged on my way to work tomorrow then I would chase them down and punch them and get my bag back, the reality may be that I would freeze and do nothing. You just don't know.

I have criticised your (and others) imposition as to how other people should feel or whether their feelings are valid or not.

I haven't said anyone's feelings aren't valid. Coming from a place of inexperience, yes, but not invalid.

The people who are very pro organ donation are the ones saying the thoughts of those opposed to the opt out system are invalid however. Likening them to murders etc.

Gronky I'll be honest here, I am also trying to be civil and have a civilised discussion, but you thinking that you would know how you felt if your CHILD died and you were asked to donate their organs becase friend of yours died is downright offensive actually, but something bereaved parents put up with far more than we should have to.

The situations aren't comparible at all and it's pretty offensive that you think they are.

I do not believe that one single person who has stood by and literally been there while a loved one died would spout the kind of talk such as that a body is just an empty shell, that they’re dead and will know no different and that someone who didn’t agree to donate their organs should be prepared to sit and watch their child die. There is absolutely no way on earth that would happen unless the individual is entirely devoid of empathy in which case they would have felt nothing over the loss of their loved one,and their opinion would be null and void.

In other words, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, unless I felt a specific way in that scenario, my opinion would be invalid (and, by extension, my feelings would be invalid or invalidating). This is what I take issue with. The conjunction of claiming that I (or anyone else) wouldn't know but at the same time that they would feel a specific way (or else their opinions are invalid). Again, please do explain where I'm going wrong if I am.

but you thinking that you would know how you felt if your CHILD died and you were asked to donate their organs becase friend of yours died is downright offensive actually, but something bereaved parents put up with far more than we should have to

I didn't claim that, I said it was very likely that I wouldn't have been specifically upset by being consulted over the donation of the organs of my friend (had I been in that position) at the time of their passing.

Pot.kettle.black, Gronky. Honestly, Break, it's sometimes just not worth engaging with anymore. This thread's done a lot to put people on the path to opting out if my PM's are anything to go by.