To be disappointed that people who should know better are minimising grooming?

[GunpowderGelatine]

After watching the Leaving Neverland documentary, in which I 100% believe the victims (I mean come on MJ was the most obvious pedophile ever!) I posted a link to a Guardian article that stated that if MJ was alive they'd be sure a jury these days would find him guilty. I accompanied with "I believe the victims". I don't usually post these kinds of things on social media but I'm disappointed that so many people on my friends list have bleated on about his innocence whilst admitting they haven't watched the documentary.

A friend commented to say that both the boys in the documentary previously stated they'd never been touched by MJ and are therefore liars. When I replied to essentially say that the power of grooming, they were coerced into lying for the man who abused them but who they also love, she replied saying it's BS, they're after money. This friend is a "superfan". She's also a year 2 teacher. She teaches children the same age as Jackson's victims, and I'm shocked that she's denying the effects of grooming. I'm extremely tempted to ask her if one of her pupils said they were sleeping in the same bed as a perfect stranger, a single man who is successful and buys them presents and gives them envelopes of cash, would she make a safeguarding referral?

I guess I'm so disappointed that people are still deluded and dazzled because he was a legendary musician - as if being good at your job and being an abuser are mutually exclusive. But I certainly expected better from an infant teacher

@JazKish
People do not lie about sexual abuse. They just do not. ESPECIALLY men!

They have NOTHING to gain from the documentary. They aren't eligible for compensation due to the statute of limitations. They were not paid a cent for the documentary. They have nothing to gain and more to lose ie abuse from fans.
It is extremely common for abuse victims to lie for their abusers. So lying under oath, which any child psychologist will tell you is very, very common for victims, proves nothing.

Unfortunately for you, the TRUTH is that they were VERY convincing, and their body language, including Safechuck's hands shaking when he held the rings, prove they were genuine. Why else would so many be convinced now, after seeing the video, if their body language wasn't convincing and didn't prove they were telling the truth?

No one can watch that documentary and their body language and have any doubt Jackson was a paedophile. No one.

Yeah, which parts were obviously fake? The involuntary shaking of James’ hands, or Wade uncontrollably choking when he talked about telling his family? Have you even seen it?

We know the indisputable facts. By his own admission he shared his bed with a stream of young men. He presented a carefully curated Peter Pan image to the world despite the fact that those close to him including his wife state he didn’t speak like that and was highly intelligent, always thinking, always planning. He gradually distanced himself from each boy when they went through puberty.

If you were to see this story now, with no prior knowledge of him, with the facts that we know and five public accusations, corroborated by multiple sources (have you seen how many books, employees, journalists have mentioned Safechuck potentially being abused, years ago? Have you seen the old news story of Jackson in disguise, shopping for rings with a boy in tow (possibly Safechuck) in Safechuck’s hometown?

It’s overwhelming. I don’t know how anyone can argue otherwise? It isn’t surely beyond reasonable doubt - what is the reasonable doubt here? Look at the facts.

Not young men, young boys!

I haven't seen the documentary, because as others have said they are tormented by it. But I believe both of these men. The evidence collected during the raids, videos of his interactions with children and interviews, boys as old 12/13 in his lap or holding hands - all of that leaves no doubt that he was a monster, who hurt and manipulate children. He is at fault, maybe the parents have some contribution but sole blame and responsibility is with Jackson.

Why is it people demand we value reputation above humanity?

Why am I supposed to care more about the reputation of some dead bloke than basic humanity?

People with power abuse it. People also seek out power to abuse it. Harping on about protecting fucking reputations above all else enables abusers.

There was one boy who shared Jackson's bed from 9-19 years old, as an adult he quite possibly thought there was nothing wrong with that, and that Michael and him shared a special relationship, rather like Safechuck and Robson had felt, that had prevented them speaking out earlier, as they did not think they were being abused until later on.

I believe them so much more than, I believe those MJ supporters who chant the same matra over and over again, refusing to believe that MJ could be anything other than a fantastic singer who was a damaged soul. Stating that he is not guilty as the trial did not find him guilty and that is evidence enough, and all those who speak out against him want money. It is like the same mantra.

There is more evidence since he died against him, then there is for him. LaToya on another thread spoke out against her brother and verhmently, she quickly retracted that statement, I wonder why! Quite possibly silenced by her brother, hiring the best lawyers to keep her quiet.

I did think it was quite odd in the 90's when I was a teen myself, that he only liked boys, I had no idea of paedophillia then and that MJ had a sexual preference for young boys and what he was using them for.

Jaz on the Martin Bashir docu MJ is asked if his father beat him and MJ said yes whilst nodding his head, due to your skewed logic then he must be lying, right? I mean if your saying yes and your movements are saying no, then you're a dirty liar. You sound a bit dim tbh.

I’ve just started a thread about my own abuse, which has been at the front of my mind since I watched this. For years I’ve struggled to call it abuse, made justifications and excuses for my father in my own mind to minimise it. I still struggle to think of him as a paedophile, I’ve spent decades telling myself this isn’t true. I’m nearly 40. The fact that people expect these men to have a consistent story from the ages they first testified at 11/15 to now just shows a complete lack of awareness of how victims think and feel. Their process has helped me to understand so much about my own experiences, I’ve never heard anyone say some of the things that resonate with me so much. They’re obviously telling the truth, no question.

There’s no way I could give an interview about what happened to me, especially when thousands are ready to rip you to shreds over it. They are so brave.

I haven’t been sexually abused, but watching the documentary has taught me so much about the grooming process and how abuse happens. Also about the devastating emotional damage. I really admire those men for speaking out. It must be so, so hard. I find the mothers incomprehensible. Beyond deluded and so selfish. I don’t know how their sons can forgive them for their total negligence.

the grooming and splitting is textbook

People don’t seem to realize they work on a different level work in different way professionals work as a team so they can get a full picture and are not be manipulated by people like MJ

And it was all in plain sight right in front of our eyes and many of us (including myself when I was younger but still an adult) fed into this child like man because we were blinded by the other side of him

@LunafortJest
Have you even looked at the court files? Wade's Mum Is asked why after the first accusation she continued to let her child share a bed with MJ. MJ settled out of court with someone years before the first two trials, he paid out around 20 mil I think it was. She answered anyway, she simply thought it was lies as MJ was so convincing. Also MJ did hang out with girls, Chantal MJs sister was one of them. She was into dancing too and shared a bed with MJ and Wade, that is in the court files too and they all admit it under oath.

Lastly, yes people do lie. Google and read about operation Midland I think it was called, a random man called Nick (false name) accused the government of abducting, molesting and sacrificing children for satanic rituals. The police fully believed the accusations, it was taken seriously and investigated for a long time. Nick even received huge payouts for media interviews. Anyway eventually his story completely fell apart, I think it was his partner who first piped up and he was proven to of made the entire thing up, he later admitted he had lied on TV, undercover of course. People need to stop being so defensive, I should imagine most reported cases are true but just as people murder, commit theft, they lie too. This is horrible for those that are true victims but people do lie and make up attention seeking stories for various reasons. An ex friend of mine told everyone she had cancer, eventually everyone found out it was a complete lie. Now that doesn't mean I think everyone who has cancer is lying, the thought doesn't cross my mind. A new colleague of mine years ago told everyone she was a multi millionaire and the chairman of a business. Alarm bells went off straight away as we was on minimum wage and why would any multimillionaire chairman be working on minimum wage elsewhere. Quick Google revealed she had made the full thing up and few months later she moved down my cousin's street, into social housing. Oh and local to where I live a young girl has been missing for six weeks, the police suspect kidnapping. Three weeks after all the media frenzy over the poor missing girl, a second girl pipes up with big slash mark images on her torso, claiming someone slashed her with a knife and attacked her. To cut a long story short it was later revealed by the police no crime took place, she had created fake wounds and shared the images online, she didn't expect the police to turn up and question her! Anyway I'm rambling now but my point is never assume people don't tell lies.

Here's a link to operation Midland

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Midland

I’ve been looking into timelines...

Start of 1993: Chandler invited to Neverland for the first time
February 1993: MJ interviewed live on TV by Oprah (first interview on TV in over a decade) - tries to control narrative about being an abused man child
May 1993: first article about their relationship
August 1993: police investigation begin

2000: Starts sharing a bed with Arvizo
Feb 2003: Martin Bashir doc airs
November 2003: Neverland raid

He knew - both times he knew what was coming, and tried to get out in front of it. It’s so clear.

www.vulture.com/article/michael-jackson-abuse-allegations-timeline.html

People need to stop being so defensive, I should imagine most reported cases are true but just as people murder, commit theft, they lie too.

Five people lying about the same abuser though?
Multiple staff and biographers mentioning these two victims in books and interviews years ago?
An old TV news story with CCTV footage of MJ in disguise buying rings with a boy in Safechuck’s home town, with interviews with security guards saying they stopped him because he looked suspicious and confirmed it was MJ?

Rewatch the 1993 Oprah interview and the 2005 Bashir interview. Both are attempts to control the narrative - the first, an hour long live interview, he even hauls in Elizabeth Taylor as a character witness. In 2003, he couldn’t control the narrative because someone spending time with him for that long can see how insane all of this is.

I thought Dan Reed's analysis of the response of the Jackson family in the article posted earlier was interesting. He talks about how the Jackson family calls Robson and Safechuck perjurers, and points out the ridiculousness of that argument. If Jackson never touched them, then they're not perjurers are they!

Agreed. Also, just having rewatched the first Bashir doc, MJ is so obviously lying about so many things, not least gaslighting the entire world about not having plastic surgery aside from his nose, one minute he says that Arviso slept on the bed while he was on the floor, the next they shared a bed, then back to the first story... he’s not credible in the least. Let’s not even get started with his three white children, one four year old with bleached blonde hair.

My elderly mother would always nastily say that "children who accuse these (in this convo) nice priests of doing things must know what they're doing" as in no such thing as grooming. She is uniquely horrible, I'd like to pretend she has dementia but she won't acknowledge my experiences that erupted into my own awareness because things like repressed memories, PTSD trafficking well they're fictional. People can't face despicable things, especially when they're idiots.

sink
The Bashir documentary was a catalyst. Gavin's school teacher reported his mother to social services for neglect on the back of the documentary - his report opened the negligence case and the FBI/police investigation into Jackson sexually abusing Gavin because his school counsellor had seen Bashir's interview and thought the sleepovers were - no Shit Sherlock - inappropriate.

Sink girl I'd be interested to see time line with all the boys he allegedly abused. ..

Omar bhatti, Wade etc there's just so many!

Incredible Rage!! I didn't know that!

One social worker.....

So basically without that one person all of this might still be Very much hidden

Sadly not spring. The social services were contacted on the 14th Feb 2003, one week after Bashir's documentary aired and they conducted an investigation between the 14th and 27th- so 13 days. They took the mother's and children's word for it (Gavin denied abuse to his teacher and the social worker).
Report here:
www.thesmokinggun.com/file/early-probe-cleared-michael-jackson
The report was leaked when Gavin later disclosed. Cynics think the social services dept were covering their arse (I do not know whether interviews by police and social were conducted separately or together but either way they decided that the teacher's concerns/allegations were unfounded).
Jackson was arrested at the end of that year.

Also note that the social services memo is dated November 26th, six days after Jackson's arrest, written after the fact.
According to Maureen Orth, the police had been investigating five months before the raid - that takes you back to June 2003.
She claimed that Gavin's psychologist had reported abuse to social services in May but caseworkers were only interested if he was still at risk. No mention of this further referral or the date of Gavin's disclosure is mentioned in the memo.
It was Tom Sneddon who was the one person who did not want to let this go - he exacted a promise that a civil suit like Jordie's would not be started and pursued the criminal trial.

I feel so sorry for Gavin. Hopefully the truth coming out will bring him some closure.

desperate here’s a timeline of his “friends”
mjandboys.wordpress.com/michaeljacksonsyoungfriends/

Actually Wade didn't give Gavin closure, he harassed him! He tried to force them to give evidence all-over again, these other victims wanted zero to do with Wade's case and he wouldn't let it it go. Getting his lawyer to threaten them, Wade's lawyers even demanded their sexual history! They wanted every bit of evidence raked back up, they didn't give a damn about the fact the previous victims didn't want to relive it all. Apparently there is a seven hour period you can be questioned as a witness, Wade's Lawyer tried to force them into reliving everything for seven hours! He asked, they all said no, he persued and persued, getting his lawyer to send them threatening letters about with-holding vital evidence etc.