To be disappointed that people who should know better are minimising grooming?

[GunpowderGelatine]

After watching the Leaving Neverland documentary, in which I 100% believe the victims (I mean come on MJ was the most obvious pedophile ever!) I posted a link to a Guardian article that stated that if MJ was alive they'd be sure a jury these days would find him guilty. I accompanied with "I believe the victims". I don't usually post these kinds of things on social media but I'm disappointed that so many people on my friends list have bleated on about his innocence whilst admitting they haven't watched the documentary.

A friend commented to say that both the boys in the documentary previously stated they'd never been touched by MJ and are therefore liars. When I replied to essentially say that the power of grooming, they were coerced into lying for the man who abused them but who they also love, she replied saying it's BS, they're after money. This friend is a "superfan". She's also a year 2 teacher. She teaches children the same age as Jackson's victims, and I'm shocked that she's denying the effects of grooming. I'm extremely tempted to ask her if one of her pupils said they were sleeping in the same bed as a perfect stranger, a single man who is successful and buys them presents and gives them envelopes of cash, would she make a safeguarding referral?

I guess I'm so disappointed that people are still deluded and dazzled because he was a legendary musician - as if being good at your job and being an abuser are mutually exclusive. But I certainly expected better from an infant teacher

MJ's defenders give me the rage, and you're absolutely right re. a complete failure to understand the concept of grooming (or at least, an unwillingness to apply that understanding to the MJ case).

It's staggering how many people will bend over backwards to demonize the victims as liars, in defence of a man who regularly shared a bed with young boys, had a nude photo of one of the victims, had a safe containing books of nude photos of children and an alarmed bedroom.

Totally agree, it’s completely obvious! Also as a pp said, he groomed us all, I remember seeing him with young boys in the 80s as a teen thinking that’s a bit weird but everyone thinks it’s ok so it must be. He’s the original child catcher, built a whole theme park around it.

The sour part of me thinks its because they're males.

He hid in plain sight like Saville, like Glitter.

Absolutely agree ynbu. I’ve spoken to friends about it too and they haven’t watched it, won’t watch it, but 100% believe he DIDNT do these things.
I’ve lost respect for these “friends” too as a previous poster has said.
They don’t want to see it. They are happy to ignore it. Can’t believe he got away with doing all those horrible things and wasn’t punished.

I cannot fathom how some people still believe in Jackson’s innocence. I have to assume they are in the same constituency as Holocaust deniers or those who think the moon landings were faked. I have zero time for them.

YANBU

Was initially doubtful of wade robson, but find him and James are telling the truth. Just shocking that MJ is still being considered as 'innocent' considering all the available in your face evidence

I’m the first one to defend a child. However please assure me it wasn’t a safeguarding issue because a friend of the family had bought a small boy a watch. Ffs he could just be being generous I hope it was looked into a bit more than just the gift of a watch.

Watching 'living with Michael', and was shocked at MJ's blatant physical interaction with Gavin, I think was 13 years old and he was holding hands and head on Michaels shoulder. How is that normal behaviour for teen boy. Seen his interviews and MJ comes across as creepy and sleazy

I agree with you OP
#IBelieveThem

I was a teenager at the time of the Jordy chandler case and even then i suspected it to be true.
I believe both men. If they were lying (as well as many family members) then why arent they oscar winning actors? I can't believe you can fake the brokenness you can see in James.
If your single male next door neighbour put loads of playground stuff in their garden to attract kids, was allegedly best friends with unrelated prepubescent boys, took them on day trips and invited them for sleepovers, no one would excuse it "because he seemed childlike and missed his own childhood" you'd think it was wrong on many levels and very inappropriate.
I also think with MJ a lot of staff, minders, drivers, management must have been complicit but who knows what hold he had over them?

User. I’m the first one to defend a child. However please assure me it wasn’t a safeguarding issue because a friend of the family had bought a small boy a watch. Ffs he could just be being generous I hope it was looked into a bit more than just the gift of a watch.

It was the language of the child
it was a £1500 adult diving watch on a 5 year old boy.
It was the background of the family

In the end once checked it turns out the boy had stayed with family friend whilst dad did the weekly shop and he had pinched the watch. But yes. Initial discussions caused concern.

Both men in leaving never land doco explained why they said he had never touched them. She should have listened to what was being said better! I like you belive the men, I also lay blame to the parents, esp the mothers of the men, couldn't quiet belive their manner throughout the entire programme, horrendous!

I found the documentary fascinating. Very sad. I believed them both.

I disagree with you entirely: I doubt a person would be convicted now. Thus I don't quite understand your objection.

There's not enough evidence. To convict. I doubt a jury would find guilty. The 2 boys/men's account, evidence wouldn't be enough. A prosecution would present them as unreliable witnesses, because of wade's previous 2 testimonies.

I don't think I agree with your viewpoint.

One of the most disturbing things in Bashir documentary was when he happily admitted grabbing his literally new born daughter and running home with her covered in blood 🤪🤔🤔 selfish fucker.

So utterly selfish.

All these boys in that unhealthy environment without actual abuse too give that monstority the childhood he never had

I think with what we will learn about grooming feelings and abuse any trial like that would include proper support for victims... possible victims like MC. And Wade as he was then etc

chosenne when someone said that on the other thread, about how they presumed there had been some ‘fooling around’ like children exploring each other, but not that he was a peadophile, my mouth was literallly hanging open.

The lunacy.

"I even read on a comments page in the mirror online someone had put that she found it hard to belive a 7 year old would go back for more."

People who haven't been there don't get it. I was 7, I went back, because the teenager who abused me was my 'friend', made me feel complicit in the abuse., and of course that's why I didn't tell. I thought it was my fault.

I agree OP. The arguments defending him are from people who really don’t understand how grooming works.

It irritates me how these people defending him won’t even watch the documentary. Because it’s even explained in the doc why they both defended him in court.

Been having a huge disagreement with my partner’s sister about it actually. She refuses to watch the documentary because it’s ‘one sided’ apparently. Which is ridiculous to me. I find her logic so strange because she’s always sharing posts on Facebook about how important male mental health is. Yet when these two male victims have come forward, she’s calling them liars.

It makes me so mad.

I think it's also disgusting how his family is still defending his behaviour and use their money and influence to attack the victims. I have no doubt in my mind that his parents and siblings know that his behaviour with children was unacceptable.

It will take a couple of decades before enough victims feel ready to come forward. I also think it'll be interesting once we start hearing about the celebrity victims.

What's really really sad is how broken James Safechuck looked in the Oprah interview.

How he wasn't as advanced/ as far into his recovery journey as wade.

Plus secondly, Both of them also have to live with the fact that their previous testimonies, particularly wade's was quoted as being part of finding a not guilty MJ verdict in the Chandler case and then the second Gavin case.

It must be hard to deal with not only your horrific ordeal, but on top of that, that your actions affected another. Must be awful.

@BloggersNet they even took out a bus campaign in London with posters saying #MJisInnocent. They freely admit to not having seen the documentary. Using money to dazzle and buy public opinion - it's the Jackson family all over isn't it

I think the family will start falling apart once their mum passes away. They will start fighting each other for money no doubt and with that we may just start hearing the truth.

I haven't watched documentary. Partly because I can't believe any of it will surprise me. I have long thought (and argued with dh once, years ago), that his relationship with young chdren was odd. This idea that he was just an innocent soul never rang true for me.

I believe them. I have only watched part one, and it was so disturbing. It was the normalisation of the abnormal.

How many more will come forward in time? I'm not aware of the other cases pp have referred to, were there other allegations too?