To be disappointed that people who should know better are minimising grooming?

[GunpowderGelatine]

After watching the Leaving Neverland documentary, in which I 100% believe the victims (I mean come on MJ was the most obvious pedophile ever!) I posted a link to a Guardian article that stated that if MJ was alive they'd be sure a jury these days would find him guilty. I accompanied with "I believe the victims". I don't usually post these kinds of things on social media but I'm disappointed that so many people on my friends list have bleated on about his innocence whilst admitting they haven't watched the documentary.

A friend commented to say that both the boys in the documentary previously stated they'd never been touched by MJ and are therefore liars. When I replied to essentially say that the power of grooming, they were coerced into lying for the man who abused them but who they also love, she replied saying it's BS, they're after money. This friend is a "superfan". She's also a year 2 teacher. She teaches children the same age as Jackson's victims, and I'm shocked that she's denying the effects of grooming. I'm extremely tempted to ask her if one of her pupils said they were sleeping in the same bed as a perfect stranger, a single man who is successful and buys them presents and gives them envelopes of cash, would she make a safeguarding referral?

I guess I'm so disappointed that people are still deluded and dazzled because he was a legendary musician - as if being good at your job and being an abuser are mutually exclusive. But I certainly expected better from an infant teacher

I feel exactly the same. Mentioned to my sister & a friend about it the other day-both of whom working in criminal justice/safeguarding roles-and both said they hadn't watched it but they didn't believe the victims & they were just after money. My friend even said she didn't believe as the parents allowed them to sleep with him!
I can't stop thinking about it & feel fuming.
It's bad enough when people who don't work in a related field deny it but when those who should understand grooming deny it im actually quite worried

@freeingNora that's what I said to my friend-have u seen abducted in plain sight? She said no. I said what it as if that can happen anything can & shows the extent a manipulative coercive groomer goes to

Fifteenthnamechange that is shocking, that is the type of hold he had on even the most intelligent of people who should know better, so then how do we expect the parents of the boys and the boys to have stopped the abuse then! I expect they would not be saying this for plain old Michael Jones down the road, and their professional radar would be at full power.

so then how do we expect the parents of the boys and the boys to have stopped the abuse then

I would expect and decent parent to not persue a suspected paedophile and allow their child to spend time alone with them and have sleep overs. I do not care how much money a person has, he already had two accusations against him and both families still subjected their child to his company and alone time. I personally don't believe he's guilty, but that's not the point. You take zero risks. I don't get why people are assuming he groomed the family, yes this does happen but it was very public at the time he was suspected of child abuse, therefore anybody in the right mind would not gloss over that, regardless of his money, fame and sweet nature. If he has abused children then the parents, who knew he had a long history of allegations are responsible for neglect.

As has been said the families were also groomed.

The only person responsible for the abuse those men suffered is the adult who inflicted it. Yes parents could have acted differently but let’s not deflect the blame here.

The reality is that there was no good reason for Michael Jackson to have a constant boy companion between 10-14 and then cease contact as they grew up. Major red flag.

As I posted earlier he also enjoyed huge wealth, status, privilege and idolisation. Coming up against that even with truth would be unimaginably scary.

Finally people who keep saying these men are just doing it for the money. When has a rape accuser become insanely wealthy or successful? It’s hardly something you want to be known for. The reality is in a case like this there will be obsessive fans stalking your every move to disprove.

Momo18 There were no allegations when those boys were with him, they came after. He is not a sweet natured man but a predator who not only groomed those boys and their families but the normal public as well. He was very clever whilst doing it.

It’s very easy to look back at it with horror but you actually have to try and remember how things were in the late 80s. MJ was not a known or widely suspected paedophile. Only a three known friendships with boys came before Safechuck (one was a boy who only met him once, another was famous - there’s only one longterm boy before James), and then Wade came next. Chandler was later.

MJ was a god to many back then (and now apparently). He was shrouded in mystery, reclusive, didn’t give interviews. The narrative about his sleepovers and friendships with boys mostly came much later.

David Geffen was investor in digital entertainment network (DEN) a paedophilic , I'm surprised oprah has him as close friend considering involvement with Colin rector known peado.

www.indiewire.com/2017/10/hollywoods-underage-sexual-abuse-problem-5-shocking-injustices-from-an-open-secret-1201891024/

vimeo.com/142444429 open secret video

I have seen An Open Secret, as should everyone.

It's just so damn obvious, people are so blind! He always used the defence ' I love children, I'm like a child myself' blah blah. 🤔 Where were all the girls then, coz girls are children too are they not? Nope you were sexually attracted to boys yer peado so that's who you spent all your time grooming and courting 🙄

vimeo.com/142444429

I completely agree with you OP.

But he was never convicted and if you post something like that on social media some people aren’t going to agree with you.

Posting some sort of “I believe all victims” smuggery would get right on my wick anyway. I believe them because they have evidence and convincing, coherent accounts with plenty to back it up. I don’t just believe them because.

@Momo18 "I would expect and decent parent to not persue a suspected paedophile and allow their child to spend time alone with them and have sleep overs. I do not care how much money a person has, he already had two accusations against him and both families still subjected their child to his company and alone time."....." then the parents, who knew he had a long history of allegations"

You are missing something. Chandler and Avizo accusations happened AFTER the Robsons and Safechucks had been intimately involved with Jackson for years. There were no allegations at all until years after. It is very, very clear, more than clear that Jackson was guilty. The dates, the testimony, the grooming, the things removed from Neverland by police (NAMBLA books and naked boy photos) the facts he ONLY had boys over, never girls, his behaviour, etc I could go on and on. Surely nobody with the brain capacity of above a goldfish can deny it any longer?

So let's get this straight

1. For years he slept almost constantly alone in bed with a series of prepubescent boys
2. Once they reached puberty he was no longer interested in doing this
3. He said that he did this because he was interested in innocently playing with small boys
4. Despite this he had a large collection of pornography which he shared with these young boys.
5. He also gave them alcohol
6. Five of the boys have accused him of sexual abuse
7. After the first accusation he made a massive payment
8. However these innocent child like games were clearly kind of important to him as undeterred by the massive payout he carried on sleeping alone with young boys for many years.

I’m a non believer because they said it took them to 30 to ‘realise’ they were groomed. That is an adult and way past adult years

As a survivor of childhood abuse, fuck you for that ignorant comment.

Sorry I missed the vital bit of the narrative. The bit that makes it clear it was all just evil manipulative boys out to tarnish the reputation of a talented saint like child and animal lover.

1. Wade Robson had two Thriller jackets. And in the documentary he burnt the less valuable one.

What I mean is two allegations and those mother's still continued to allow their children to be alone with him. I know of someone who was accused and then found not guilty and I don't personally believe this person is guilty either. However I still take no risks as far as my children are concerned.

Tbh regardless of accusations or not I would not let my children share a bed with another adult, apart from myself and their Dad. I don't get why people are minimising the fact that these parents let their children down massively. Yes I do agree families can be groomed, absolutely. However there are serious safe guarding issues with parents allowing their children to have sleep overs with grown men. It's madness! Some predators do groom families, but come on. This is hardly the doting uncle, married with a family who is secretly a paedophile and posing as the caring uncle. MJ was a single man, who enjoyed the company of children sleeping in his bed. If Joe Blogs down the street asked for my kids to have a sleepover and abused them I would be at fault for letting my children go off and get into bed with a grown man. Social services would want to know why I allowed my children to go get into bed with a grown man, they would likely imply I was also aware of the abuse too as you would have to be stupid to take risks like that.

If these allegations are true I should imagine this is why both men have very little to do with their mothers. Both of them chased the dream, the money, the limelight. It is very evident in the court files what their motives were. In fact Joy Robson admitted during her witness statement in Wade's lawsuit that she uses the name Joey professionally. She explains Joey was the name Michael gave for her due to being Australian, named Joy and when he pronounced Joy it sounded like Joey. She's clung to that name for dear life, anybody with an ounce of empathy would be repulsed by the nickname. But nope, shes kept the name Joey! Why?! Any loving parent would want every last reminder of the monster that abused their child gone.

op
Some people lie about sexual abuse,these two guys have a lot to gain from this one sided documentary,and they had 6 years to work on their story,they have previously lied under oath.How do you know they were coerced into lying op?.They are good actors but not that convincing ,it was easy to see from their body language that they didn't believe what they were saying.

That is BS. There are a lot of myths around body language and it is nowhere near as clear cut as people claim it is.

"What I mean is two allegations and those mother's still continued to allow their children to be alone with him."
And again, the allegations didn't happen until long after Jackson had been through with these 2 men.

Jaz. Either you have not seen it or you are delusional, or perhaps completely ignorant of child abuse and grooming.

I've followed all of these threads and the programmes and can't get them out of my mind. Talking with friends today, we were mulling over some questions - why just boys? Does that make him homosexual? Why only young boys? Less of a threat? Why no adult male relationships? It brings up so many baffling theories.

I also keep wondering, what has happened to suddenly make us see all this for what it really is? Why in the 80's did it seem perfectly acceptable for a 30 year old man to walk around holding the hand of a child? A different child often! He's always surrounded by an entourage of adults? Complicit adults or just not seeing what was in plain sight?

What I mean is two allegations and those mother's still continued to allow their children to be alone with him.

James was 15 at the first trial and Jackson had long since been traded in by Jackson. Wade was 11. He had been telling his mother that absolutely nothing had happened, as grooming victims often do.

I agree, I wouldn’t have let my children go there at all, but they’d been groomed for years before the first trial.

these two guys have a lot to gain from this one sided documentary,and they had 6 years to work on their story,they have previously lied under oath.How do you know they were coerced into lying op?

MJ had a lot to gain by lying, he had a VERY long time and well paid help to work on his story. How do you know he didn’t lie?

They lied under oath as groomed children. Wade has already perjured himself at the first trial and was still unable to question what had happened to him when he testified at 22. Abuse victims understand this entirely. Did you see the Oprah interview, with the audience of abuse victims who gave them a standing ovation? They recognise themselves in these men.