To be disappointed that people who should know better are minimising grooming?

[GunpowderGelatine]

After watching the Leaving Neverland documentary, in which I 100% believe the victims (I mean come on MJ was the most obvious pedophile ever!) I posted a link to a Guardian article that stated that if MJ was alive they'd be sure a jury these days would find him guilty. I accompanied with "I believe the victims". I don't usually post these kinds of things on social media but I'm disappointed that so many people on my friends list have bleated on about his innocence whilst admitting they haven't watched the documentary.

A friend commented to say that both the boys in the documentary previously stated they'd never been touched by MJ and are therefore liars. When I replied to essentially say that the power of grooming, they were coerced into lying for the man who abused them but who they also love, she replied saying it's BS, they're after money. This friend is a "superfan". She's also a year 2 teacher. She teaches children the same age as Jackson's victims, and I'm shocked that she's denying the effects of grooming. I'm extremely tempted to ask her if one of her pupils said they were sleeping in the same bed as a perfect stranger, a single man who is successful and buys them presents and gives them envelopes of cash, would she make a safeguarding referral?

I guess I'm so disappointed that people are still deluded and dazzled because he was a legendary musician - as if being good at your job and being an abuser are mutually exclusive. But I certainly expected better from an infant teacher

I’m a non believer because they said it took them to 30 to ‘realise’ they were groomed. That is an adult and way past adult years

I’m an adult who was raped at age 20. I still struggle to not blame myself somewhat for that - I’m 36 now.

My rapist was convicted of the crime against me. So I should have no reason to hold any guilt about what happened. But I do.

So I disagree massively on the above point.

He is literally the only adult man on the planet who has this mysterious 'child like" personality which means he is a fully functioning adult yet the mind and complete innocence of a child

Very succinct. I’ve watched about 40 minutes of the first documentary and I want to vomit.

He is literally the only adult man on the planet who has this mysterious 'child like" personality which means he is a fully functioning adult yet the mind and complete innocence of a child

But could sign million dollar contracts,manage his career and could be quite graphic in his dancing.Yes thats really childlike

He is literally the only adult man on the planet who has this mysterious 'child like" personality which means he is a fully functioning adult yet the mind and complete innocence of a child

But could sign million dollar contracts,manage his career and could be quite graphic in his dancing.Yes thats really childlike

Not to mention the huge Porn collection he amassed, discovered by FBI. He was not child-like, or innocent. He was a VERY sexual grown man. A wolf in sheep's clothing. Money and fame stopped people from speaking out.

I absolutely believe James and Wade. Their recall of events on the leaving never land programme were so genuine, I can't believe people are calling them liars.

oblomov The other judgment was similar - that's why it will make an appeal more difficult. They only had recourse to negligence claim after being told they were too late to claim against probate iirc.
But negligence is hard to prove against the directors. You could possible try and take the enablers to court: the staff themselves but none of them have any money (many actually owe money to the Jackson estate) or you could have sued your own mum but they don't have money either and were groomed themselves.
Unlike a pp, I have zero sympathy for the likes of Adrian McManus (the maid) who would exploit her own family to make a bob or two
and did. Irrespective of power dynamics and intimidation, she threw all those boys under the bus and only chose to whistle blow when it suited her and when she wanted to sell a story, sue Jackson and continues to sell the story to make a fast buck. No concern for the children or their safeguarding whatsoever. That is not to pass responsibility on - the fault for abuse lies with the abuser - but enablers do not get a free pass from me. I have whistle blown on a different matter in the past myself - it sucks and nothing good comes out of it for the one who brings bad practice to others' attention higher up but you either have integrity or you don't.
Much has been made of the release of the documentary on DVD but neither James nor Wade stand to make any money out of that.
Much has been made out of the Estate defending Jackson to keep the money coming in - the strangest thing from this is that, despite the negative publicity, Jackson's records are selling and a German MJ impersonator says they are still in demand . I don't know who is buying his music in droves, whether it is a show of loyalty or what the fuck. Most bizarre.
Buster you were correct with regard to the jacket being a replica. Dan Reed had made out they were original items but Wade said it was the jacket he used to perform in. I put both their quotes on a previous thread (again, not an MJ fan myself but am not a fan of misinformation either) and was told I would probably love sleepovers. Nowt as strange as folk.
The criminal case without Wade's original testimony might have gone to a hung jury. A civil case, where the burden of proof is lower and you are looking at probable rather than doubt, would have gone against him I think.

www.scribd.com/document/353219745/Safechuck-Ruling-Demurrer-Dismissal

I think that some people wouldn't believe it even if they saw it with their own eyes.

I can totally understand why the stories changed so often.

MJ threatened doom for both him and them if they disclosed stuff.

I can imagine why someone would pretend that it didn't happen in order to move on. Both men spoke of loving MJ even when they were adults and divulged everything. One had his sister defend MJ in court and in public. Would she be publicly crucified if it emerged that she defended a paedophile? The parents were also sucked in until the end. Imagine people all over the world knowing. I can understand why someone would want it buried forever.

I worry for the victims who haven't come forward.

I don't know how anyone could have watched that and still defend Michael Jackson. The man had young boys sleeping in his bed for years. No-one disputes that as far as I know. He was seen in the shower with one of them. That alone is enough.

His "legacy" should be torn down. His music banned. Any award or accolade he ever received stripped away, and for ever more be known as the most prolific, and horrific, child abuser to ever live.

I am beyond disgusted that anyone could defend this man

Their recall of events on the leaving never land programme were so genuine, I can't believe people are calling them liars

I suspect most have not watch it and will not - ignorance is bliss.

People who won't watch the documentary are burying their heads in the sand. I do take umbrage at anyone commenting on something they haven't seen. It is the height of ignorance.

I think k it would be helpful if McCauley Culkin would come out and admit abuse. People would listen to him if it had happened to him

It may not have happened to him though. Paedophiles don't abuse every child that they have access to.

Very rarely anyway. I've no doubt that there are other victims but he may not be one of them.

Corey Feldman's initial reaction was very unhelpful to the men's stories too.

I agree, anybody who says that MJ is not a paedophile is in some sort of Neverland themselves. I believe that he was the most obvious paedophile, and his status and power ensured he got away with it. Any other Joe Boggs who behaved like him, would be harshly and quite rightly judged, but somehow MJ got away with it, and pulled the wool over people's eyes.

His behaviour with young boys, as at best very questionable, it was obvious he had a preference for young boys. The Police evidence found at Neverland Ranch in 2016 was awful, basically books written by Paedophiles with nude pictures of young boys in suggestive poses, photos taken by Paedophile photographer of nude boys. He liked spending a lot of time alone with young boys, and seemed to always have a young boy accompanying him.

In the documentary, the way he talked about the boys was in a flirtacious and suggestive way, what he said about them was quite concerning and lead me to believed that his interest in young boys went beyond friendship.

Evidence Item #365: Pornographic books, including images of naked children.

‘The Christy Report’, nude images from the 1940s, some described as sadomasochistic.

‘Robert Maxwell Photographs,’ various images, including those of children.

Abuse is not cut and dried and takes obvious steps, it may come out years after it happened, and the abused may still find it difficult to comprehend what happened to the, may deny it, and may be afraid of reporting or speaking up about it in case they are not believed. The abused may be in some sort of FOG type state as well.

@PlausibleSuit thanks for explaining. I was probably a bit to black and white in my thoughts.

I still can't stop thinking about those programmes and it was a week ago now

Just because some of the boys with Jackson said they were not abused, does not mean MJ did not abuse others. The Police evidence at his ranch certainly gives you some idea of MJ seedy interests.

What if MaCauley Culkin wasn't abused though, why are you making that assumption nearlytheeasterholiday ?

Article on the news now about abuse at a detention centre I think back years ago. Sorry only just caught it, but heartbreaking testimony from one of the men who was a youngster there. What survivors went through is just horrific 😪

freeingNora said

'If you think this is nuts watch the kidnapped in plain sight documentary on Netflix I promise you’ll never look at world the same way'

I watched this a couple of days ago, and I totally agree with you.

I think k it would be helpful if McCauley Culkin would come out and admit abuse. People would listen to him if it had happened to him

I have to admit following this documentary I suspect he was targeted by Jackson. The pattern of his relationship followed too closely to their own stories and the fact (I think it was Wade?) one of the boys was made an outsider when that relationship started.

He may not of been but I feel that he would have been privy to the same exposure to alcohol and/or pornography and give those claims some credence.

As it is he has a very close relationship with Paris and is her godfather so I think he is still to closely tied to the family to do anything other than defend Jackson.

I think it’s interesting Michael jr doesn’t seem to be as vocal in his defence although that may be the media picking and choosing sound bites.

@Bellasorellaa You obviously don't unnderstand (or don't want to understand) that many abuse victims don't realise they were abused until well into adulthood. I was in my late 30s when it finally hit me what happened to me. Also, one of them did know when they were young but were made to believe they would go to jail too. When you are told that repeatedly, you believe that you will go jail.

"There is also a billionaire dollar I believe lawsuit they are trying to claim from the estate."
Not there isn't. And they are not getting any money from this documentary, either. They were not paid a cent. They have far far more to lose, what with them being scrutinised and harassed and attacked by people especially angry Jackson fans. There is no upside for them. Thats what makes what they did admirable and very brave. They have been very brave.

Lastly, it is very common for abused children/adults to defend the abuser and lie for them when they suffer Stockholm Syndrome or they honestly don't realise they have been abused. This is all basic knowledge that anyone who has had even the slightest understand of abuse, knows. You may not be able to understand why they would lie about under oath, but anyone who even slightly understands the pattern of abuse will understand.

If you watch the documentary, you will see all of that was explained. If you haven't watched the documentary, you really don't have the right to an opinion, and certainly don't have the right to attack the victims.

Nobody can say 100% that MJ did not abuse boys, tgere will always be that element of doubt. Only MJ and any child who were abused by him will know.

There may not be a lot more victims to speak out, he had particular boys for years at a time, and it's true he wouldn't have abused every child, mac culkin would have been too high profile to risk it, MJ was extremely clever in his picking and choosing. My "uncle" (friend of family non related)was a paedophile he was hounded from his village and his house burned down, however he never touched me and I only found out years later.

No one watching that documentary could possibly not beleive those boys.
Also young children's fingerprints was found on the pages of the porn in mjs bedroom. Not guilty does not mean innocent.