To be disappointed that people who should know better are minimising grooming?

[GunpowderGelatine]

After watching the Leaving Neverland documentary, in which I 100% believe the victims (I mean come on MJ was the most obvious pedophile ever!) I posted a link to a Guardian article that stated that if MJ was alive they'd be sure a jury these days would find him guilty. I accompanied with "I believe the victims". I don't usually post these kinds of things on social media but I'm disappointed that so many people on my friends list have bleated on about his innocence whilst admitting they haven't watched the documentary.

A friend commented to say that both the boys in the documentary previously stated they'd never been touched by MJ and are therefore liars. When I replied to essentially say that the power of grooming, they were coerced into lying for the man who abused them but who they also love, she replied saying it's BS, they're after money. This friend is a "superfan". She's also a year 2 teacher. She teaches children the same age as Jackson's victims, and I'm shocked that she's denying the effects of grooming. I'm extremely tempted to ask her if one of her pupils said they were sleeping in the same bed as a perfect stranger, a single man who is successful and buys them presents and gives them envelopes of cash, would she make a safeguarding referral?

I guess I'm so disappointed that people are still deluded and dazzled because he was a legendary musician - as if being good at your job and being an abuser are mutually exclusive. But I certainly expected better from an infant teacher

Yeah, I’m sure they’re just after the money - that’s why all the world’s richest people like Bill Gates are plagued by sexual abuse allegations 🙄

Isn’t it funny how there aren’t allegations against every rich man in the world? As an example, look at Russel Brand - infamous for his promiscuity and yet not one accusation so far. Huh.

YADNBU

I grew up abroad and didnt really have much of a position on the wacko jacko stuff - which I now feel guilty about, it was so obvious. I've now watched both parts of the documentary, the Oprah Winfrey interview (essential viewing for anyone still in doubt), the Martin Bashir stuff and done lots of reading about what went on at the time. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, zero, that those 2 men are telling the truth and MJ was a predatory paedophile.

I liked sone of his music, the earlier stuff before it got ridiculously self indulgent, but I certainly wont be voluntarily listening to any of it now.

Darcy I could be wrong but I think he burned the mini replicate that was made for him and sold the real thing. That's what I've heard but it could've been from a MJ mega fan.

I agree op and will never listen to his music again even though I really like some of it. I wish the radio stations in this country would follow suit of Australia and ban his music

I understand the parents were "groomed" as well but what I don't get is how many parents would allow their kids to share a bed with a man??

I think sadly, it was a very different time. There was this often held idea that famous people were just odd or different and it was okay. Sort of like the whole rock n roll thing where throwing guitars around and tossing pianos out of hotel rooms was seen as "cool". Also, there was much less understanding about predators, and other abusers. Paedophiles were the dodgy gay uncles who had no friends. Now, we all know that's a crock of shit

What happened was wrong. And the parents were wrong not to see it. But I sympathise a little because I think it was a very different environment.

Cal I've watched all three too. The Oprah show was so sad, I can understand that some people may find Wade a bit matter of fact and distant about it but who's to say that's wrong? We all deal with things differently.

I have had to hide lots of posts on Facebook from friends who I adore but who cannot accept MJ is guilty.

Having been abused I can see all too clearly how these families were groomed.

It’s all very triggering for me and I am distressed by those denying it all.

I’m a non believer because they said it took them to 30 to ‘realise’ they were groomed. That is an adult and way past adult years.

I'm a therapist and this is not at all unusual. I've seen people reach their 50s and 60s before realising they were groomed.

I'm actually down a MJ rabbit hole at the moment and am watching everything and reading all the links. If anyone looked at my browsing history they'd think I was crackers!

"I’m a non believer because they said it took them to 30 to ‘realise’ they were groomed. That is an adult and way past adult years."

I've got suspicions of someone very close to me being abused as a child, she's nearly 70, she'd never admit it, but there are a lot of red flags. Age of discloser really has no relevance.

“I understand the parents were "groomed" as well but what I don't get is how many parents would allow their kids to share a bed with a man?? “

The mother explained how MJ made her feel she was in a mother role to him, too. Came to her house, big deal about feeling at home, hours on the phone confiding in her. So grateful to her for that (that!) that he bought her a house...,

She said she felt as if MJ was one of her children too.

Wade's demeanour - a bit matter of fact, slightly detached, is exactly how someone I know who was sexually abused as a child presents - it seems a perfectly normal.amd understandable way to be able to talk about it to me.

Cal I was just referring to other threads about MJ, I totally believe and understand the way they come across.

I have seen fb posts with fans "explaining" he didnt think like a normal man, he was like child, he lost his own childhood.....but not willing to accept these are all excuses for behaviour that is highly inappropriate at best.
Even if you think Wade Robson and James safechuck are lying (i don't, i believe them) even if you think someone could fake being that destroyed (James) what about their family? Did they get a discount on family acting skills??? Interestingly i felt the most raw emotion came from Wades brother, who actually had no (or very litttle) part in the grooming process.

Until we watched this my DH believed that MJ did abuse boys but that he also was childlike and wanted to play with young boys because of his own childhood.

Now he agrees with me - that all of the playing with boys and acting like a child was both part of the grooming and part of his fetish.

I understand the parents were "groomed" as well but what I don't get is how many parents would allow their kids to share a bed with a man??

It seems to me that he used a deeply cynical, manipulative process that happened in gradual increments. It followed a path:

• typify the 'divine child' archetype, making himself appear utterly harmless, vulnerable and misunderstood to elicit sympathy
• gradually separate the fathers off from the mothers, starting the process of splintering a family unit and inserting himself, cuckoo-like, into it as an oldest child/father substitute/confidante
• lovebombing with once-in-a-lifetime gifts and experiences
• separate off any female children. Notice the way, despite how he was supposed to 'love all children', he quickly sidelined the girls?
• finally, separate the mother via continuation of gifts and experiences
• all the while, grow bond with child in a 'you and me against the world' kind of way

By the time it actually got to the bed-sharing stage, he'd been a (seemingly) harmless and beneficent presence in their lives for some time (whilst actually undermining the entire family unit from within). It must, at some level, have seemed like leaving the child with a trusted babysitter, or an older sibling, or a close family friend.

I don't think I've ever watched something that has affected me as deeply as this did. I believe both men.

Yes plause you are exactly right with the cuckoo comparison! I watched the Martin Bashir (sp?) docu today and he made my skin crawl. Climbing the tree and his painting of him wearing a loin cloth surrounded by cherubic boys. Sick. At the end there were snapshots of photos of him with children and one was James. So sad. So awful that it happened and so very sad that anyone can google his name (James) and it's free for the whole world to see it.

Even if he was innocent. Even if he was childlike and just wanted to play innocently because he missed his childhood.

It would still be wrong.

He would be teaching these children deeply inappropriate boundaries and leaving them vulnerable to be abused by others because they thought this was normal behaviour.

I thought he was guilty in the 1990s. I never believed the story that to make up for not having a childhood, he liked to share his bed with pre-pubescent boys.

I was disappointed with the 2004 verdict. I remember seeing him on the telly standing on a car celebrating, and fans cheering, and feeling upset he'd got away with it.

Dh just sent me a picture of the bus in London absolutely awful :(

Many people are blind about those they've idolised.

I was a fan of a certain band in my teens/early 20s, one of those that tend to have a core of very devoted fans, and it was quite well known that one member liked his groupies young. Didn't think much of it at the time because it wasn't unusual when I was in school for girls who were 13 or 14 to have boyfriends in their late teens or even early 20s.

Many years later I read that there was a rumour that he had raped a fan. I looked into this a bit. On forums I found any mention of this led to a lot of defensiveness despite people then describing how he had groomed 13 year old fans while completely failing to recognise that that is what they were describing.

I found it astonishing. Apparently picking out a vulnerable 13 year old with mental health issues, grooming them, shagging them, abruptly dumping them leading them to (in some cases, apparently) attempt suicide just makes you a bit of an arsehole.

And this was someone who didn't have the wealth and fame of someone like MJ.

If someone doesn't want to see it nobody can make them. For me, I still listen to that band on occasion. That particular person is dead, I have no problems with money going to his family given that from what I can tell he put them through hell as well.

I wish there was some way to voice our 'I believe them's, to add it to a chorus for Wade and James to hear.

I don't think I've ever watched something that has affected me as deeply as this did. I believe both men.

Yes same here. It's on my mind a lot - takes some processing.

Plause - I like your description of the grooming/manipulative stages.

I don't think I ever really had to think about grooming before. It was easy to dismiss Jackson as just Jackson. "That's just how he is". So easy to just close your eyes and not see his behaviour for what it actually was. To ignore the huge, massive red flags everywhere. He did it in plain sight and knew how to buy silence and attack accusers. I've no doubt that his defenders have also been successfully groomed.