To be disappointed that people who should know better are minimising grooming?

[GunpowderGelatine]

After watching the Leaving Neverland documentary, in which I 100% believe the victims (I mean come on MJ was the most obvious pedophile ever!) I posted a link to a Guardian article that stated that if MJ was alive they'd be sure a jury these days would find him guilty. I accompanied with "I believe the victims". I don't usually post these kinds of things on social media but I'm disappointed that so many people on my friends list have bleated on about his innocence whilst admitting they haven't watched the documentary.

A friend commented to say that both the boys in the documentary previously stated they'd never been touched by MJ and are therefore liars. When I replied to essentially say that the power of grooming, they were coerced into lying for the man who abused them but who they also love, she replied saying it's BS, they're after money. This friend is a "superfan". She's also a year 2 teacher. She teaches children the same age as Jackson's victims, and I'm shocked that she's denying the effects of grooming. I'm extremely tempted to ask her if one of her pupils said they were sleeping in the same bed as a perfect stranger, a single man who is successful and buys them presents and gives them envelopes of cash, would she make a safeguarding referral?

I guess I'm so disappointed that people are still deluded and dazzled because he was a legendary musician - as if being good at your job and being an abuser are mutually exclusive. But I certainly expected better from an infant teacher

Birds
they both admitted it
Did they really? Presumably you can provide a link for that then?
I already know you can't, but you thought you'd say it anyway.

So don’t be mad at people who don’t believe it and they don’t need to watch a 2019 documentary on someone else’s opinion to form their own.

How can you form a firm opinion on something without all of the information? The documentary is crucial information. It’s not only what they say, it’s what their families say, and how they all say it. I would love for a defender to explain to me Safechuck’s shaking when handling the jewellery or Wade’s choking when talking about his family finding out.

Watch it and then have a discussion about it, otherwise fuck off.

There’s no question they’re telling the truth and every other victim I’ve seen discussing it feels the same.

Well a documentary is hardly a blacked trail is it? I don’t really know much about the topic. If I heard that a man was doing this my first assumption would be sexual abuse. But I wouldn’t presume to declare someone guilty on the basis of a documentary or my own assumptions. You and your friend respresebt two sides of the same coin. You’re both believers, you just believe different versions of the same story. Neither of you are right. The only right action here is to come to a decision after a rational investigation based on the full facts. If the full facts are not available to you you have to accept that what you believe may be incorrect.

*balanced trail, many documentaries are very one sided

The powerful learning in James’ and Wade’s testimony is in the nature and effect of grooming.

They didn’t feel abused: they loved him, they felt special, and they thought they were doing the right thing because their parents approved, endorsed the behaviour and the kids also saw their parents showing ‘love’ for MJ.

They were still children when they first testified that MJ was innocent. Their parents were cheering MJ on, he was phoning them....

Very hard for them then to later change their story. We saw how aggressive MJ’s lawyers were. Perjury is imprisonable. By then they were in a trap.

The parents were still sticking up for MJ after both boys had alluded to him being ‘not nice’.

It cannot be underestimated how deep grooming can go.

The families and boys were vulnerable from the off: star struck mini MJ performers, with parents who bought into it.

Super fandom is a cult. They were sucked in.

You’re both believers, you just believe different versions of the same story. Neither of you are right

Actually one of them must be right.

Like I said I watched the documentary, I believe them and I thought the allegations were true in the 90s too.

I feel for the member of staff, who in the face if the lawyers and the MJ PR machine, testified that she had seen inappropriate behaviour and seen them in the shower. She was disbelieved, in effect, when he was found innocent.

I think it’s important also to remember the balence of power here.

After feeling like this was a loving relationship and then coming to a sickening conclusion about the reality there is still a massive imbalance of power if the victims wanted to speak up.

On one hand you have either a child or an adult recalling an incredibly painful experience which brings up confusion and trauma.

On the other you have an idolised man who has incredible wealth and power to hire the best lawyers available. Add to this this man is worshipped to the extent that any by speaking up you will gain notoriety and potentially be hounded for the rest of your life. (Just look at Twitter right now)

I can completely see why it might take so long to speak and be terrifying even as an adult. Then additionally bring all this into a case where it is notoriously difficult to prove. Rape or sexual assault is essentially one persons word against anothers. Conviction rates are amongst the lowest.

I think it’s incredible anyone found the courage to speak out if we consider all of that.

I believe them and I can’t think of anyone who has had their life enriched from false accusations.

Is the second half on tonight? Some of the clips of MJ on the first one had me open mouthed like when he was dedicating something or other to 'Little One', he was a sick creepy fuck. He was plastered all over everything in the 90s so it all just became sort of normalised, his face, his voice, his behaviour. Looking back now it's like something from a horror movie.

Jury’s need to see evidence in order to convict.
He was found innocent 14 times during his life.
This documentary would have no bearing in a court of law.

He wasn’t found innocent Bubba he was found not guilty.

All these means is that it couldn’t be proven without reasonable doubt. As per my post above sexual crimes are notoriously difficult to get a conviction.

@Bubba1234 There is no such thing as 'found innocent'. It simply does not exist in a court of law.

And 14 times? I am aware of 2 court cases, are you saying there were 12 more?

Watch the second part and the interviews with the jurors - there’s a huge difference between innocent and not guilty and I’m amazed there’s anyone who doesn’t understand that.

Civil suits in America are different - not based on reasonable doubt but rather “on the balance of probabilities”. For this reason they’re often seen as the only route to justice for victims of sexual offences in America. It’s not just the money, it’s the acknowledgement. Jackson knew he would be destroyed in civil cases on this basis, hence the settling out of court.

I’m amazed anyone doesn’t understand their false testimony as children, or they’re difficulties in speaking out at all. I could not give evidence about my abuse now, more than 20 years later. The only people who’d be upset about it would be those who know my abuser - the thought of coming out and speaking about your abuse at the hands of a man who has obsessive followers all over the world is horrifying. The MJ fans are shouting loudest but I think most who have seen it believe them - I hope that’s some comfort to them.

The second part of the film really demonstrates how legitimate they are - it’s all well and good to say they’re lying, anyone could lie about anything. But look at the information and detail they’re giving (and their families), even things not directly related to the abuse, look at the emotions connected to some parts of their stories that cause physical reactions in them both. It’s absolutely true.

I'd love to meet the MJ super fans that don't believe he was a raging paedo, it's as obvious as the nose on your face! I feel sorry for any children they may have or they come in contact with.
When I was about 9/10 someone rang my house pretending to be my dads friend, they chatted to me for a bit, asking my name etc then it moved on to them asking what I was wearing. It took me quite a while to realize they were a pervert. I put the phone down and never mentioned it again, the only person I've told it my husband about 25 years later. I still feel ashamed and stupid. That was just one phone call! One 5 minute phone call!

Something similar happened to me Buster - I’ve never told anyone about it, I was mortified.

It's horrible isn't it Sink? If we feel so horrible just over being talked to on the phone, then what must those boys/men be feeling. I had a fellow employee at my place of work run his finger up my spine when I was bending over once too, I was about 18 at the time, he made me feel dirty too. I told my dad one morning dropping me off to work, he made a joke and didn't see it as wrong. I was hoping he could've been my hero (my dad) he did nothing.

I'll just add, the finger spine incident involved some Percy talk, can't quite remember it, but I was mortified and was scared of him after that.

*pervy

That’s awful Buster.

I experienced sexual abuse from a family member as a young child, strangely I have been able to talk about that (eventually) but never that phone call. I just felt so stupid and completely responsible.

I know, it's nothing compared to what people have been through, but the shame of it is overwhelming . My dad letting me down. Funnily enough. Once again I've only told my husband about it. He was raging and thought my dad was a dick!

RageAgainst thank you for your very informed answer to my question.

I think he was mighty unlucky that four of his 'special friends' were all unscrupulous enough to make up stories about sexual abuse that never happened just for money.

People seriously think that now four of them have all said the same thing that there is no truth in it? One, perhaps, two, maybe, but FOUR?

And I can think of better ways to make money than pretending you were sexually abused on the world stage. One of them had the thriller jacket, which must have been worth an absolute fortune, and at the end of the documentary he burned it!

Totally agree!
I’m pretty disgusted by some of my friends opinions on it, I’m pretty disgusted they even think they should have an opinion on it. It’s not CSI or Luther. It’s real life and they didn’t play armchair detective for any of the me too victims who shares their stories.

Quite frankly whenever I read posts on here from people defending him, I can't help but think quite how thick they sound.

I haven't watched and don't intend to. I have always thought there was something strange about his behaviour even when young (I'm 36 now) I'm angry at the parents to allow this to carry on. I have two boys and would never dream of putting them in a situation like this.

I understand the parents were "groomed" as well but what I don't get is how many parents would allow their kids to share a bed with a man??? What could he have said or done to allow the parents to say "of course you can share a hotel room with my child"