AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.


And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

[Jaxhog]

I would not let her go, and I would make a fuss about it re safeguarding etc. this needs to be challenged.

This matters. Because it won't only be children, it also means that adults could be trans. Adults aren't supervised. I know the chances are remote, but would you really take that risk?

[sackrifice]

I think it is so disappointing GG haven’t considered the type of situation the OP mentions before deciding to make it single gender rather than single sex.

Yes, if only someone had pointed it out to them.

To me it just seems OTT to go through one's own and one's child's life like this, but each to their own and I suppose the OP feels they are defending a principle shrugs

Jesus. Rapes in school are on the increase, and yet shrugs

It's no wonder girls are at increased risk of rape and sexual assault when people just shrug at safeguarding.

[Rufusthebewilderedreindeer]

OP feels they are defending a principle

OP has stated that it neeeds to be single sex for a reason

[Soontobe60]

My school recently took our Y5 children on an overnight trip in a museum. There were several other groups there. Each group had one of the galleries to sleep in, mixed sex. Our group leaders were 3 female and 1 male. We all slept in the same space but had single sex toilets. Interestingly, a couple of the other groups were Brownies. All the children were of Primary school age, and had there been a man present who was 'pretending' to be a woman with the sole intention of getting his hands on a girl, he would have had no chance!

Don't get me wrong, I have a real issue with one sex self identifying as another and trying to use that sex's spaces, but I'm also objective enough to know that a mass, very public Brownie sleepover is not putting any child at risk.

[Soontobe60]

Where's the evidence that rapes in school are in the increase?

[Thurmanmurman]

The leaders wouldn’t be sleeping with the Brownies though. If there are any trans children they would be aged between 7-10 at Brownies age. Pre-pubescent children, not predatory perverts 🙄 it’s not a case that your DD can’t go, it’s a case of you not allowing her, which is a very different thing.

[Angel2702]

My daughter goes on beaver camps with male and female leaders and boys and girls. At that age they still change for PE in the same classroom as the boys. I really don’t see the issue. Would you feel the same way if there were girls or leaders who were lesbian in case they were a danger to the girls? They will be in a large group and everyone regardless of what genitals they have will have been vetted thoroughly.

[10IAR]

According to a recent investigation by the children’s charity Barnardo’s, allegations of children committing sexual offences against other children have risen 78% in England and Wales in four years. Police recorded 9,290 accusations of sexual offences in which both the alleged perpetrator and victim were under 18 in 2016, compared with 5,215 in 2013.

soontobe60 I copied it from an article but Barnardo's is the source.

[Aeroflotgirl]

I agree with you op, and it is sad that girls/women's only spaces are being threatened. Some parents pick GG because it is single sex for whatever reason: religion, medical, preference.

[McTufty]

To be clear I don’t think someone being trans poses a risk. Trans people are people like any other, there will be bad apples among them but generally are not looking to abuse any children.

However it isn’t just about that - girls may reasonably feel uncomfortable changing around someone male even if that male person poses no risk at all.

[MaybeDoctor]

I was groped by an adult man on a Guiding trip, aged 14, during half-an-hour of unsupervised free time. He wasn't a leader, but it just illustrates that it can happen. Looking back, I can see that the leaders would have perceived no/minimal risk occuring in that half hour.

It wasn't traumatic, but it definitely unsettled me.

[Graphista]

"Those saying the OP is unreasonable and putting her political opinions before the interests of her daughter, would you still say that if she was a practising Muslim woman?" Exactly!

Or previously been a victim of abuse?

Op doesn't need to say why this is important but there are several perfectly good reasons other than political ideology (which in this case I also consider a good reason actually) why this might be the case.

"I would ask for reassurance from the leaders that they are supervised at all time." How do they achieve that? The leaders need to sleep too. Trust me running these events is exhausting!

It's not just about BEING safe, it's also about FEELING safe, the emotional wellbeing of such young children is also hugely important.

"I thought we were talking about sleeping in the same tent, not getting changed together"

Where do you THINK they're getting dressed?! There won't be enough room or time for them all to be getting changed in the toilets!

It's ludicrous and as someone who was in the GG in various membership forms for decades inc as a uniformed leader I am HUGELY disappointed and angered on their stance on this!

"If it is a brownie sleepover, it will be girls aged 7-10 closely supervised by leaders" you're missing the point COMPLETELY the GG are saying that it's NOT guaranteed it's only girls, they're saying there may be boys there who "identify" as girls but they won't have done anything medically yet to transition, simply boys in girls clothes. It may even include mtf transgender ADULT leaders - and we KNOW that there are sexual predators ALREADY exploiting the current trans agenda in order to gain access to victims.

"it would be a male Dbs checked leader, rare, or even rarer a trans girl" dbs checks are no guarantee - especially if they're being done against a "false" name which has also already happened.

"And ask, too, why these spaces, which predominantly protect girls and women, are being eroded." Totally agree

"if your worried volunteer & go with them?" Not a valid option if the reasons are medical or legal (eg foster child with restrictions for their safety). Doing this could be in breach of a court order.

"This year our numbers are down considerably. I am wondering if threads like this one, plus M Jackson being exposed (rightly so) are a factor." The numbers are more likely down due to GG NOT taking parents GENUINE SAFEGUARDING concerns and restrictions due to medical/legal reasons and non disclosure of trans members being present (they don't need to be personally identified, NO good reason why GG couldn't have a policy where they say whether a trans person may or may not be present) SERIOUSLY! Frankly it's worrying you can't see that!

Lovemusic33 so the links to trans id'ing abusers and peer on peer abuse have COMPLETELY escaped you then?

Scouts have a far better and clearer policy on this and have since admitting girls been very careful to work hard to prevent abuse occurring (doesn't mean it hasn't though. You have a very worryingly complacent attitude on this)

To ALL those saying "they're in a big marquee with loads of other people around" I can ASSURE you csa CAN and DOES occur in the presence and view of others. Ffs there's even filmed footage that was broadcast of Savile doing so! Iirc more than 1 incident.

Abuse isn't always blatant and extreme, and doesn't have to be to be hugely damaging.

"I do get the wider issue, and would be unhappy if we were talking about older children/ teens." What about 10 almost 11 year olds well into puberty? Because brownies START at 7 but they don't move up to guides until at least 10.

For the hard of reading

peer on peer (meaning children abusing children in lay terms) abuse at this age is NOT uncommon

"And guides is the same. That ok too?" Exactly - teenagers going through puberty and all that entails - especially for girls - is not being acknowledged or properly handled. It's a fucking disgrace!

"GG are breaking the law. They have been told to make their mixed sex status clear but are choosing not to.

Stop lying

100% this!

"There's only, what, maybe a couple of hundred kids that would be sexually abused each year if we stopped with all this silly safeguarding nonsense, I can't believe we ever thought it was worth while." Commendable statement but try a couple of thousand. Many victims don't disclose to law enforcement or social services which form the "official" stats but informal, mainly charitable organisations (nspcc, childline, rape crisis) to whom victims are far more likely to disclose say the number of victims is FAR higher than "official" stats

"I think YABU, and there’s a lot of catastrophising on this thread about the threat from transwomen. I don’t think Girl Guides can actually do anything better here, unless they check their volunteers’ biological sex, which would be hugely intrusive" completely disagree - a child's right to reasonable safeguarding FAR outweighs another child's and especially an adults right to protection from potential what? Embarrassment? Give me strength!

[sackrifice]

My school recently took our Y5 children on an overnight trip in a museum. There were several other groups there. Each group had one of the galleries to sleep in, mixed sex. Our group leaders were 3 female and 1 male. We all slept in the same space but had single sex toilets. Interestingly, a couple of the other groups were Brownies. All the children were of Primary school age, and had there been a man present who was 'pretending' to be a woman with the sole intention of getting his hands on a girl, he would have had no chance!

How do you tell the difference between a transwoman and a man 'pretending to be a woman with the sole intention of getting his hands of a girl'?

[sackrifice]

My daughter goes on beaver camps with male and female leaders and boys and girls. At that age they still change for PE in the same classroom as the boys. I really don’t see the issue. Would you feel the same way if there were girls or leaders who were lesbian in case they were a danger to the girls? They will be in a large group and everyone regardless of what genitals they have will have been vetted thoroughly.

Good grief.

[Rezie]

I'm not from the UK a f our rules are less strict like I learned when I joined scouts in the UK. You definitely have every right to stop your daughter from attending the camp. And there is definitely room to negotiate with the leaders but in big camps it's not always possible especially if own leaders are not the main organisers. I've always gone to a mixed scouts and to this day boys and girls sleep in the same tents and rooms. Leaders also sleep in the same tents and rooms depending on the place. So for me this is no big deal but I understand that it might be an issue for some.

[YogaWannabe]

I understand the concern overall however it definitely feels like you’re using your dd to make a political point.

I have to say, I actually agree with this.
I’m gender critical myself (and it has caused many issues in my life!) but I wouldn’t bring DD into it over something like this.

[sackrifice]

I’m gender critical myself (and it has caused many issues in my life!) but I wouldn’t bring DD into it over something like this.

The OP has clearly stated that the child NEEDS to be in a single sex provision. Not a mixed sex one.

[sackrifice]

I've always gone to a mixed scouts and to this day boys and girls sleep in the same tents and rooms. Leaders also sleep in the same tents and rooms depending on the place. So for me this is no big deal but I understand that it might be an issue for some.

And the risk assessment would have been done accordingly.

The issue here is that the risk assessment is not being done - at all.

[starzig]

Aren't you worried that you might make her scared of single sex spaces by making this such an issue at a young age? I heard someone on here say that their child wouldn't go to the toilet to the point she was unwell because of the parents idealism.

[MyBestFriendIsAHamster]

They are merely not excluding transgender individuals, which they cannot legally do.

Except they are excluding trans individuals because their policy excludes trans boys.

Excluding trans boys however is apparently okay and nobody ever challenges it .

[Nannewnannew]

OP parents like you are the very reason I gave up helping at Brownies! I went on several brownie camps as chief cook and bottle washer, we always stayed in Church/ village halls, and it was exclusively an all female event. The oldest brownies were aged 11 but many were younger, because some brownies had lost interest as they approached the upper age limit and had dropped out.The brownies who attended camp all had a thoroughly good time, as did the leaders and helpers, who, incidentally, gave up their time and annual leave to organise and run the camps. All leaders and helpers are volunteers, but unfortunately parents seemed to forget this and their demands made running the packs more difficult.

I think you are denying your daughter an enjoyable experience because of your political stand.

[rioroller]

I think you are denying your daughter an enjoyable experience because of your political stand.

READ THE BLOODY THREAD

[Rufusthebewilderedreindeer]

READ THE BLOODY THREAD

I agree with rio

I absolutely appreciate that you may miss something...but at least read the OPs posts