AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.


And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

[AWishForWingsThatWork]

You're ridiculous. Brownies are 7, 8 and 9 years old. Boys and girls sleeping in sleeping bags in a big marquee together with grown ups supervising is the epitome of a non-issue.

[Mrskeats]

But this is what the British gymnastics is saying though?? There is no privacy now for girls.

[RiverTam]

hibble no, you are wrong. GG can invoke exemptions in the equality act to be single sex (not gender). Only those with a GRC can be legally treated as the opposite sex. Children can't have a GrC and most trans adults don't have them either.

GG are breaking the law. They have been told to make their mixed sex status clear but are choosing not to.

Stop lying.

[AnneOfCleanTables]

hibble as PPs have point out, your understanding of the current law is incorrect. Also, GG was always single sex . It's now single gender . This is despite every consultation with members reiterating that they wished to remain single sex. And most members will be completely unaware of this change because of how GG introduced it.

[Chocolate1984]

Male volunteers and or male children (they would be leaders boys) have to have seperate sleeping accommodation/room. And separate toilet and wash facilities.

But that doesn't apply to transgender girls/women. Transgender women/girls do not have the same risk assessment or safeguarding arrangements as men.

[cdtaylornats]

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

That's not really true is it? Your DD isn't being allowed to attend because you want her to be in single sex accommodation.

[Mrskeats]

And guides is the same. That ok too?

[ittakes2]

Bronwies are so young - if she is only sleeping with other Brownies I don't see the issue but it is of course up to you.

[CuriousaboutSamphire]

Ye gods!

GG are not compelled by law.. that is a gross misunderstanding of the links posted! They can, if they choose to do as they have but there are any number of reasons, some outlined in previous posts why that might mean any number of girls will then be excluded. That's why GGs still exist, because some girls, some parents, religions, legal proceedings, etc etc still prefer / require single sex activities.

The issue here is one of informed consent, not the epitome of a non-issue. By doing as they are GGs are excluding some girls (OP has hinted quite heavily as to why in her case).

[GahWhatever]

OP I respect your decision not to explain which of the reasons for needing a single sex space applies to your DD, In case this helps: as a Brown Owl I had a looked after child in my unit who needed single sex space. We did a sleepover at a big museum and it was agreed with her case worker that we would agree in advance with the museum that a corner site would be available for our group to use and the girls would be bounded by adults from our party. This was considered acceptable to the girl, her F Mum and her case worker. If your is a similar case the GGUK organiser should certainly be able to guarantee your DD's unit a secure sleep location.

[OhHolyJesus]

FWIW OP, I'm with you, YANBU, and I wouldn't allow it either for the reasons you have made clear. I have a DS and wouldn't allow it at that age anyway but girls and boys should sleep desperately and single sex spaces should be respected and clubs should uphold this for safeguarding treason. I'm really sad that GG and Brownies don't recognise this. I hope you have a lovely time with your DD in place of the sleepover.

[Namechangedbecauseiwantto]

People need to read the update. The poster has clearly stated that there is a genuine reason for her not wanting dd to sleep in a shared gender/sex marquee.
Op, yanbu, sounds like you e come up with a lovely compromise for your dd.

[McTufty]

Girlguiding are following UK law regarding transgender individuals, as they are obliged to do legally

@hibbledibble I’m a lawyer practising in equality and discrimination. You are wrong about the law.

I don’t think it’s likely that your daughter will get assaulted OP, but I can understand why she might feel uncomfortable with a male bodied person in close living quarters. I might have even at that age.

What are the arrangements? 20 people in a dorm or sharing in rooms of 2? That would make a difference to me (though not perhaps to the reasons you’ve given).

[Rufusthebewilderedreindeer]

namechange

I agree

People are not reading the thread

[SciFiScream]

@hibbledibble GG have absolutely chosen to go mixed sex (and ignore the exemptions they are legally entitled to use) otherwise what does the "trans" mean in transgender individuals. It's because they are TRANsitioning from the stereotypes of one sex to the stereotypes of the other sex.

[sackrifice]

In case this helps: as a Brown Owl I had a looked after child in my unit who needed single sex space. We did a sleepover at a big museum and it was agreed with her case worker that we would agree in advance with the museum that a corner site would be available for our group to use and the girls would be bounded by adults from our party. This was considered acceptable to the girl, her F Mum and her case worker. If your is a similar case the GGUK organiser should certainly be able to guarantee your DD's unit a secure sleep location.

I think you are missing the point somewhat. The GG have decided that they will not inform any parent if a child is male; therefore if you had a transgirl in your group, you could not disclose it to the parent, if you had a transwoman as helper, you could not disclose it to the parent and you would be inadvertently running a mixed sex provision without the ability to disclose it to any parent.

[BrieAndChilli]

could you go along as a parent helper? that way you can keep a close eye on her (whatever the reason this is such an issue for you?) your DD can have the fun experience and you can see what procedures/arrangements are in place?

[GahWhatever]

I think you are missing the point somewhat.
I don't think that I am. The OP has already stated that they are confident in the local pack/know the local pack well and will allow sleepovers with them, just not larger groups. So in case the issue was a 'looked after child' situation I was suggesting a possible way for DD to participate. OP has not said what the reason is for the need for SS space.

[sackrifice]

The OP has already stated that they are confident in the local pack/know the local pack well and will allow sleepovers with them, just not larger groups.

And in that larger group, nobody is allowed to tell anyone whether adults or children are male so there is no way to risk assess the situation. Which is the point that it is now [secretly] mixed sex.

[Wantmyflipflops]

I can understand the OPs comments here especially regarding the fostering concerns.

When I was looking in to fostering there were many stipulations that needed to be applied especially concerning the sleeping arrangements and people that the children were allowed to be left alone with, be around etc...

If one of these is that only same sex sleeping is allowed then GG not informing parents of any children that are trans-gendered will result in those stipulations being broken.

I don't think everything can be seen as so black and white, bottom line is our children our spending the night away from the protection of their own homes and guardians, it is only right we are reassured that they will be safe.

[CountFosco]

They are merely not excluding transgender individuals, which they cannot legally do.

They are breaking the Equality Act by not providing single sex sleeping and toileting facilities. No transchild has a GRC so they are forcing XX girls to share with XY boys who are not on estradiol and have not had GRS. The adults may or may not have had surgery (most don't, it's complicated and has lots of side effects so understandable) and may not have a GRC. GG are pushing through 'self-ID' in the GGs before the law has changed.

[PeeGreen]

I don't have experience with Brownies, but I know that the Scouts are very strict on safeguarding. And what I mean by that is if they decide there are concerns then they will do things according to strict procedure.

If you've experienced that, then you would find (admittedly Guiding rather than Scouts) 'sorry nothing to see here' attitude to be unconscionable.

[McTufty]

I think it is so disappointing GG haven’t considered the type of situation the OP mentions before deciding to make it single gender rather than single sex.

[havingtochangeusernameagain]

Brownies are young but aren't there usually young leaders too? They will be 14 or over, so it is possible you could have a biological male there who has gone though or is in the process of going through a male puberty.

I wouldn't be concerned about a 8 year old boy who says he's a girl. I might have a concern about a 16 year old young man saying he's a girl, though.

[Echobelly]

I'm gender critical, but TBH this seems over the top to me. The chances of their being a trans child there are tiny, the chances of that child being some kind of risk even more remote. There may be a higher chance of a trans adult being there but presumably in order to do so, they would have had to go through criminal checks (FWIW, I know they are not foolproof by any chance) and as people have said, everything will be heavily supervised, it's not like kids aren't together in big groups at night.

To me it just seems OTT to go through one's own and one's child's life like this, but each to their own and I suppose the OP feels they are defending a principle shrugs