AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.


And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

[mumwon]

if your worried volunteer & go with them?

[peachesandclean]

I went on many a brownie sleepover when I was young, one was a huge one in a shopping centre with other brownies, scouts, guides, cubs etc...

If this is anything like mine was, the groups will be kept very much in their groups, and the leaders won't take their eyes off anyone, they know the responsibility they have for looking after young children and keeping them safe.

I truly don't think you have anything to worry about here

[BringOnTheScience]

Scouting units are NOT obliged to offer single sex accomodation. That's made very clear in their procedures.

Chapter 9, if you're really interested. members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/search/?cat=480

[Cora1942]

Another brown owl here. Im just organising a sleepover for our District.
Male volunteers and or male children (they would be leaders boys) have to have seperate sleeping accommodation/room. And separate toilet and wash facilities.
I appreciate you are worried about trans leaders or girls/boys. But your daughtet would sleep near to your group leaders. Do you know all your group leaders?
Any adult 18 plus staying overnight must be DBS checked by girlguiding and provide referances.
As leaders we are never 1 to 1 with girls.
Im posting this to raise awareness to other parents at small , unit only events. You will know all your leaders. You can ask to meet any leaders from other units if they are joining you. Trans boys/girls are in tiny tiny minority and at 7 to 10 years (brownie age) i wouldnt worry myself. I appreciate others may think differently.
I put many many hours of time into volunteering. Have arranged dozens of holidays and sleepovers in the past. Its lovely to see the girls enjoy themselves and the extra time allows exciting themes and games.
This year our numbers are down considerably. I am wondering if threads like this one, plus M Jackson being exposed (rightly so) are a factor.

[Fazackerley]

Well I guess the Scouts have never bothered much about safe guarding in the past.

Seriously.

[hibbledibble]

It sounds like your dd could go, but you are catastrophising to make a point. This is your choice, but I wouldn't blame girlguiding, or attempt to shame them in this forum.

Girlguiding are following UK law regarding transgender individuals, as they are obliged to do legally.

Transgender people are not the bogey men that this forum likes to paint them as.

If you are so worried about your dd's safety due to the possibility of having a transgender person in the same room as them overnight, then volunteer to help on the trip. I'm sure they would love to have extra helpers.

[Lovemusic33]

It wouldn’t bother me, they are children (guessing age 8-9)? My dd has make friends over at this age and never did I consider they would sexually assault her.

They are going to be in a big marque with adults, what’s the chances of anything happening? If she was in scouts there would be boys?

Girls have been allowed into scouts and beavers for years now and no one ever complained but now there’s talk of trans kids (boys) going to brownies all hell breaks lose. They are children, they will be supervised. Seeing as most sexual assaults are from adults who work with children a couple trans kids would be the least of my worries.

[RiverTam]

Cora threads like this are not to blame - GG's decision to go mixed sex are to blame. Please don't dump this on parents.

[hibbledibble]

RiverTam

Cora threads like this are not to blame - GG's decision to go mixed sex are to blame. Please don't dump this on parents

Yet more misinformation. Girlguiding has not chosen 'to go mixed sex'. They are merely not excluding transgender individuals, which they cannot legally do.

[BinaryStar]

I think the way that GIRL guides are willing to throw GIRLS under the bus in the name of wokeness is awful. And massively in denial about why safeguarding is safeguarding. It is going to take some serious incidents of abuse for them to climb down I fear.

All that said I think it could be possible as a gender critical parent to adopt some cognitive dissonance here and decide, if they really wanted to, that whilst you are opposed to their stance, you feel on the particular facts of a case that your child will be appropriately safeguarded.

[Troels]

I don't think YABU. We are losing all our safe spaces and it is very sad. Those who have no worries and think YABU will shout the loudest if it is one of their children who are violated. I'm pretty sure there are people on here who have spoken about how they or their child have been assaulted in the middle of a party with people all around.
The only time my children did sleepovers were with cub scouts (in the US), every cub scout who went had to have a parent or guardian with them, each family had their own tent for sleeping so all safe.
Here in UK Dd has been a week away with the school three times, each time they seperated the kids into girls rooms and boys rooms.

[Inertia]

YANBU.

Your daughter needs single-sex accommodation. The Girl Guiding organisation refuses to provide this. It's yet another example of girls being expected to move aside to accommodate males, irrespective of the protected characteristic of sex, any other protected characteristic such as religion, or any safeguarding issues ( and I think that posters who genuinely believe that there cannot possibly be safeguarding issues with under-10s are very under-informed).

[Mrskeats]

Ian Huntley would have got through a dbs. They guarnteee nothing as they can only state what has been recorded so that’s a red herring. The guiding movement is making a huge mistake going down this route. It’s not a political debate- it’s about protecting young girls. I would like to see what their insurer has to say on this. I would contact them op.

[BinaryStar]

Gg are not bound by the law in the way some posters would like to suggest. There are times where you can lawfully discriminate against individuals who have even GRCs. See here for a good summary.

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/EA2010_womensrights_-factsheet.pdf

[VioletCharlotte]

Brownies are about 7 or 8 aren't they? I wouldn't have an issue with children sharing with the opposite sex at that age. I think you're putting your principles before common sense here. I do get the wider issue, and would be unhappy if we were talking about older children/ teens.

[Only13percentleft]

For the record. I have worked with several transgender people who have all been lovely. I have a lot of respect for them. I have also worked with lots of non - transsexual people who I have thought were lovely. However, 1 of those turned out to be a sex offender. I, like a lot of others, didn’t see that coming. Safeguarding (and the protection of single sex spaces ) works on a balance of probability. Women are more at risk if male-bodied individuals are in their space.

The issue I have is that a single-sex space has been eroded which prevents my daughter attending this event. 3 years ago this wouldn’t have been an issue (and why she’s in Brownies). I am not catastrophising to make a point. It is a fact that this is no longer a single sex space.

[TheDizzyRascal]

Oh blimey, I'm not sure what I'm missing here?? This wouldn't bother me at all, my son is in cubs (which allows girls to join) and at camp they all bunk up together, excuse my ignorance but why does it bother you? Leaders won't be in with the children (I don't think? They have their own accommodation/tent when our cubs go camping) IMO they're young enough to not worry about this xx

[MammaMia19]

My Dd 6 is a rainbow and I let her go on the sleepovers. They seem very well run and I haven't had any cause to worry. Sometimes I think this whole trans movement goes too far in both directions and becomes a bigger thing than it actually needs to be. Like pp said you can always get a dbs check and volunteer to go with them.

[PencilsInSpace]

Girlguiding are following UK law regarding transgender individuals, as they are obliged to do legally.

Yet more misinformation. Girlguiding has not chosen 'to go mixed sex'. They are merely not excluding transgender individuals, which they cannot legally do.

Incorrect. EHRC have confirmed that Girl Guiding would be acting perfectly legally if they chose to use the Equality Act single sex exceptions.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3253884-girlguiding-an-update?msgid=80833792#80833792

They don't have to exclude male children who identify as trans but legally they can. The worrying thing is that they seem unable to answer straightforward questions about safeguarding wrt this policy.

[Mrskeats]

Ok so do you think that British gymnastics is right saying that girls must change with male bodies in the room is fine too dizzy?
As they have announced today? Plenty of female professional athletes are on twitter today protesting this.

[DrCoconut]

DS goes to beavers and although it's obviously mixed sex they have separate tents and toilets/washrooms for boys and girls. I guess at that age though they are too young for it all to be as important as when they're older. AFAIK none of the leaders are trans gender.

[TheDizzyRascal]

I thought we were talking about sleeping in the same tent, not getting changed together @Mrskeats? I'm all for privacy, like going to the bathroom and getting undressed, but sleeping in the same tent age 8 is not an issue to me xx

[GerryblewuptheER]

It sucks doesn't it op

It's not just the fact they cant garuntee its single sex. Its the lies.

The fact is you have to put your dd in the hands of people who would lie to her face. And who put the burden of keeping safe on her. If you cant trust the adults around them to keep them safe and to listen to them and not gaslight them into saying what they see with their own eyes is not what they see then they cant go.

Trust is everything.

FWIW gg wont talk to me any more either. They wont answer my questions