AIBU to be sad that my DD can’t go on a brownie sleepover?

[Only13percentleft]

NC’d for this as it is identifying.

My DD is a Brownie and loves going each week with her friends. Her Brown Owl has asked if the girls would like to go on a region organised sleepover where lots of Brownies sleepover at a theme park and then have a fun day on the rides together.

A bit of back history first. After receiving the Girlguiding email in September (about the inclusion of trans women/girls in the organisation) I wrote to Girlguiding asking if they would still be offering single sex sleeping arrangements (as they are now a single gender organisation) as I didn’t want my DD to be sharing with the opposite sex on residentials. They ‘reassured’ me that they would look to accommodate any request that helps a girl feel more comfortable saying that ‘this has included organising separate facilities for anyone who needs them.’

Fast forward to this sleepover, only 4 months later. I aske d Brown Owl if she could guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation for my DD. She contacted Girlguiding who are organising the sleepover. It has taken them nearly 6 weeks to come back to her but the long and short of it is that they can’t guarantee single sex sleeping accommodation. They’re going to be sleeping in large marquees with lots of different people from different units.

I’m really sad for my DD who now cannot attend this event. She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation and this can’t be guaranteed.

And if anyone asks why I’m posting this now, it is to make other people aware of this situation, especially as sleepovers are being organised for the summer. Girlguiding do not make it explicitly clear that single sex sleeping accommodation is not their default position. They do not say on their permission forms that you may be sleeping in the same space as someone of the opposite sex. Leaders are also not allowed to tell you if this is/is not the case.

I’m not sure how girl guides would know if one of its leaders was transgender

Ask for the birth certificate if they are not sure?

@Nannewnannew

You have no idea why the OP's (or anyone else's for that matter) DD needs a single sex space.

Perhaps it's a good thing you don't help any more. Someone who is so judgmental and clearly dismissive of individual children's particular needs should not be helping at brownies.

And I'm not being snide

I miss stuff on threads all the time, but i do check the Ops posts

I’m not sure how girl guides would know if one of its leaders was transgender

Presumably they have eyes.

hamster yes I totally agree, I definitely should not be helping at brownies.

It's also worth pointing out that some girls have started puberty by 10/11.

I had started puberty by 10 and there is no way I would have been happy sharing sleeping accommodation with boys* and sharing changing facilities with them no matter how they identified.

*I'm calling transgirls boys here because they are children and won't have started the transitioning process yet. So legally and biologically they are male.

Nan you gave up helping at Brownies because some children need a single sex space and you knew the GGs were no longer single sex? Because if you gave up for any other reason, it's not relevant to the OP at all.

The OP has clearly stated that the child NEEDS to be in a single sex provision. Not a mixed sex one.

But people have given alternative options like OP go along herself and a brown owl has posted above and stated they have accommodated a child in similar circumstances.

The Equality Act makes it perfectly legal to have a single sex club or society and to have single sex overnight accommodation.

Some women and girls have specific, extra reasons for needing single sex spaces but none of us should need a specific reason. Being female and wanting female only space should be enough.

Girl Guiding has always been single sex and has plugged this as its USP. The organisation has changed itself by stealth to mixed sex and the only info they're giving parents is 'we're not allowed to tell you if your daughter is in a mixed sex environment, you're not allowed to know'.

Girls who had extra specific reasons for needing single sex accommodation never needed to be singled out for special arrangements in the past. They do now and that's shit. Probably also discriminatory in many cases.

Sigh.

They're too little to worry
Put her next to staff
Don't use her to demonstrate your political beliefs
Your belief in her need for single sex spaces is unjustifiable
She'll be sad if you say no
It's a tiny number of kids.

101 reasons why single sex spaces have gone. And why a safeguarding disaster is eventually inevitable and we can only hope it's not our kid that is the one affected by it. Because women will usually accept a shit sandwich.

I'd do the same, OP. But until enough women stand their ground and say women and girls have a right to female only groups and spaces, and safeguarding that doesn't exempt males who want to be exempted, and they're not prepared for their kids to take a little bit more risk and for their life as a female to be that little bit lessened, we've had it. There will be the girls who do, and there will be the girls who are excluded from girls and women's spaces.

But you are making the decision to stop her going, it isn't that she can't go.

I don't really buy that the inclusion of trans-girls in girl guiding puts others at risk.

I'm curious, I've worked with males, females and transgender people. When your child grows up, will she live and work in a single sex environment ? You don't seem very accepting/tolerant of other people. I am sure I will read that some hospitals have mixed wards...

Sadly this thread demonstrates that not enough people get it.

OP I'm sorry you are being forced into making this decision and I'm sorry for your DD missing out because GG can't sort out Safeguarding for girls.

For those who think it is OK/probably OK - you just don't know that it will be.

GG have decided that parents do not need to be informed If a male bodied child/adolescent helper/adult helper or leader is sleeping or using bathing, changing or toiletting facilities next to your. 8-10.5 year old.

Plenty of Mums and Dads would be deeply unhappy about it, but don't realise it's going on.

But you are making the decision to stop her going, it isn't that she can't go

How do you know

No of course we cant know 100% that it will be ok, but it's a risk I'd be willing to take because the risk is minimal. I think statistically your dd is more at risk from a member of her own family which is still small obviously.

@Nannewnannew - the GGUK policy is the reason I gave up volunteering with GGUK. My issue is the lack of transparency.

On my dc's scouting camps I know they are mixed sex sleeping unless otherwise arranged. I don't have an issue with that. I know about it. It is clear in all their information.

I have an issue with gguk asking us to collude with them in keeping information from parents about whether mixed sex sleeping is going to take place. Leaders risk assess. But a parent can only make an informed decision if presented with all the facts.

I know of a young man who felt hounded out of GG because their identity as a trans male was made apparent due to GGUK posting pictures and with their own social media, 2 and 2 were easily put together. Now that young person was able to present as male and remain in gguk. They should have been safe. They should have been protected. Gguk failed that young person. Whose to say they won't also fail any other young person in their care by not being open about whether a male is present or not. This isn't about sex. This is about gguk's ability to look after everyone who is entrusted to their care.

This is political rather than a safeguarding issue, they are small children (guides starts at 10). The probability of a trans girl being there is incredibly remote, it's very rare under 11, the vast majority of trans kids are teens.

Along with a few others I fear a serious assault will occur as a direct result of this policy and the combination of that and the policy itself (such an assault will make big news and many parents who were previously unaware of the policy or unaware of its effect on safeguarding) will kill off the organisation.

Which makes me incredibly sad and angry, both for whichever girl/s are victimised and as it will be a major loss to girls of what was once a great, girl positive organisation.

The Baden-powells must be spinning in their graves!

Have any Baden-Powell descendants commented?

Woah! Just having a read through of some of the posts.

To quote the great Linford Christie - WTF?

What thaegumathteth said with bells on. You are using your daughter to make a point.
She needs to be in single sex sleeping accommodation - No, you need her to be in single sex accommodation (It's a political statement to ensure your daughter is in a single-sex space? Fucking hell - where have we got to that ensuring your daughter is in a single-sex space is a 'political statement'? Feel like I'm being sucked back into a time-warp to the 70s)

Don't use her to demonstrate your political beliefs
Your belief in her need for single sex spaces is unjustifiable (Erm? As above)

The risk of assault by a person of any genital arrangement in a marquee full of kids is very low. (..."very low". OK, let's all go with 'very low', that'll do, and ignore the safeguarding principles that were developed to reduce that % to even lower - whilst we're at it, how about chucking out safety marks for car seats 'cos, hey, why risk assess too much. Becuase, as long as it's 'a bit low', not 'the lowest it could be', that's fine?)

Someone who is so judgmental and clearly dismissive of individual children's particular needs should not be helping at brownies (AKA: your daughter's needs are unimportant with regards to others' needs)

OP parents like you are the very reason I gave up helping at Brownies (Really? You gave a shit...up to a point?)

They will be in a large group and everyone regardless of what genitals they have will have been vetted thoroughly. (Pfft! Mwah hah hah! Vetting always works!)

All the children were of Primary school age, and had there been a man present who was 'pretending' to be a woman with the sole intention of getting his hands on a girl, he would have had no chance (That's always worked too, eh? That's why ...safeguarding...oh, hello, that's a bit 'political' nowadays, isn't it? )

When your child grows up, will she live and work in a single sex environment ? You don't seem very accepting/tolerant of other people.

(Fucking hell. No, all our children will grow up to be adults who live in a unisex environment, and some of those, who are just emerging into adulthood, will still potentially have understood their right to dignity, privacy and safety and for some spaces to still be single-sex.

The next generation - particularly girls - seem to have to give up all of this to be 'tolerant' of giving that all up for 'other people')

If my sons were to come on pack holiday with my unit, they would require separate sleeping/ toileting/ washing facilities. Parents would be informed at the parents meeting in advance. It is a transparent fact that there are leaders sons regularly present at pack nights. This is all in-line with GG rules.

If one of my sons said that they identified as a girl, they could then make a promise, be a full member of GG and be integrated into the unit as a girl and those additional safeguarding provisions that are required for males no longer apply.

It is this secretive difference of rules that people with XY genes and bodies but identifying as female are being presented as girls with a different set of rules to other males that is the problem.

In my recent GG safeguarding training session (Level 3), there was emphasis on the importance of the perception of feeling safe as much as actually being safe, respecting fears and different perceptions Oh the irony!

Volunteer to go as a parent helper then you can see the situation for yourself? Both the scouting & Guiding Associations are usually more than happy for parental help (subject to usual DBS checks).

“d, it could be for religion, it could be because she’s been a victim of sexual assault, it could be because she’s a foster daughter who has been told by the LA that she must always be in this accommodation, it could be because she just doesn’t feel comfortable. It is one of these reasons but I’m not going into it on a public forum. “

Just quoting the OP as a reminder here.

I suppose this is the fault of being so inclusive as a society. We can't leave people out.
Ironically, in cases like this it means some can't be included.