Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died

[UnexpectedButExpected]

AIBU to feel unbelievably sad that Shamima Bergum’s baby has died.

The poor mite simply didn’t have a chance in the world he was born in to.

So bring her back and try her with terrorism offences. Seems perfectly simple to me.

And I have, of course that she was groomed. But a 14* year old girl who was doing well at school and seemed to be living quite a liberal Muslim life in the UK suddenly becoming an ISIS bride seems to suggest something of the sort happening......

*I know she was 15 when she left. But was presumably 14 or younger when the planning started.

So bring her back and try her with terrorism offences. Seems perfectly simple to me.

Who is supposed to go and fetch her?

So bring her back and try her with terrorism offences. Seems perfectly simple to me.

It's not "perfectly simple" to charge and convict someone of crimes committed in another, particularly when the victims are dead. The standard of proof required in courts makes that very difficult. There should be a treason law that makes it possible to put anyone like her away for many years but apparently there isn't.

And I have, of course that she was groomed. But a 14 year old girl who was doing well at school and seemed to be living quite a liberal Muslim life in the UK suddenly becoming an ISIS bride seems to suggest something of the sort happening......*

It's impossible to know how "liberal" her life was. Undoubtably she became radicalised after seeking ISIS out but that is not the same as being groomed. You wouldn't say that a 15 year old who went on the dark web to establish links with paedophiles despite knowing exactly what they were doing to other children was groomed would you? That seems to be what you are doing here.

“You wouldn't say that a 15 year old who went on the dark web to establish links with paedophiles despite knowing exactly what they were doing to other children was groomed would you?”
I’d sure as hell want to know what had gone on in said 15 year old’s life to get them to the place where they did that, yes. Wouldn’t you?

So person X introduced 15 year old SB to the man (who I think is 27 now, so was 23 then) who she then married - reportedly even he thought she was “a bit young”...

How do you think that process happened in a way that is not the grooming of a child?

I’d sure as hell want to know what had gone on in said 15 year old’s life to get them to the place where they did that, yes. Wouldn’t you?

I think that everyone would want to know what went on in their life to get them in that place as they so with SB. I doubt that you would insist that they were an innocent victim of grooming though.

Who should bring her back Bertrand? You said it was 'perfectly simple' so presumably you have an idea who should be sent to fetch her?

There is a difference between “victim of grooming” and “innocent victim of grooming”.

“Who should bring her back Bertrand? You said it was 'perfectly simple' so presumably you have an idea who should be sent to fetch her?”
I have no idea. But if she can somewhere to be filmed by a British news crew, surely she can be bundled into a car by British consular staff or, if necessary, military personnel? I can’t imagine any other country is clamouring to have her.

There are no consular staff in Syria because it is too dangerous, this has been the case for a long time now. It would also put military personnel at risk as they are more likely to be a target. Why should other people risk their lives to extract her?

BertrandRussell this has been mentioned on the thread & I have read it in some of the earlier reports. I believe the camp she is in is some kind of holding camp for Isis wives & children, I’m not sure the women are actually free to leave and they could be tried at a later date. If this is the situation it’s like asking the govt to break her out of prison.

So person X introduced 15 year old SB to the man (who I think is 27 now, so was 23 then) who she then married - reportedly even he thought she was “a bit young”...

I don't think that means that grooming was certain. In many countries including France, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Italy and Portugal, some US states she would be above the age of consent at 15.

There are no British consular staff or military personnel in Syria. She’s not the only British born woman in the camp, what about the rest of them?

Leave her to the Syrians, then. But presumably she was allowed to do the interviews because they want rid of her? Otherwise why?

If she can't leave the camp, and is being held, what on earth was the mass panic and revocation of citizenship for then?

I think some folk are just looking for excuses for why they hate her, and are cherry picking aspects of media stories to suit themselves.

She wasn't groomed? Ok. Do you say the same about the girls who were so awfully abused in Rotherham and Rochdale? As the police and social services did?

I'm fairly sure you wouldn't say the same.

Even if she is allowed to leave why does she get special treatment?
The govt are quite clear, if you are in shit in Syria you are on your own!
If they go in to extract her they have to do it for everyone that has got themselves into this situation. I believe there are a lot of them.

Even if she is allowed to leave why does she get special treatment?

She doesn't, she was clearly expecting to return as over 400 male IS fighters have. Why is she being singled out when they weren't?

The govt are quite clear, if you are in shit in Syria you are on your own!

Are they? Because nobody batted an eyelid until it was a female who wanted back in.

She wasn't groomed? Ok. Do you say the same about the girls who were so awfully abused in Rotherham and Rochdale? As the police and social services did?

Those girls didn't seek out those men on the dark web with the knowledge that they were paedophiles who were raping and abusing children though did they. They were befriended slowly and gradually without knowing what the intentions of the men were i.e. groomed.

“They were befriended slowly and gradually without knowing what the intentions of the men were i.e. groomed.“
And you are certain this didn’t happen to Begum?

Leave her to the Syrians, then.

People are just pointing out that it isn't as simple as just going to get her. There is no consular presence, no judicial or legal structure, no documentation. It has been made very clear for a long time now and that you enter Syria at your own risk. And those stating that she should be fetched seem quite willing to volunteer others to risk their lives for the task.

10IAR All of the points are in answer to people saying we should bring her back.
As far as I know the men that have returned have made their own way back, they have not been rescued by the govt.
As for the Govt not being clear, it clearly states on the foreign office page that there is no assistance in Syria.

The male fighters found their own way home. Nobody went to fetch them.

How did all the others get out then? How did the Sunday Times get in and out?

She wasn’t groomed she was radicalised. And she actively sought out that radicalisation. According to her husband, she was very keen to marry him. It’s interesting that there’s no clarity on her date of birth or even if she was born in 1999 or 2000, in any event, the age of consent in Syria is 14.

She wasn't groomed? Ok. Do you say the same about the girls who were so awfully abused in Rotherham and Rochdale? As the police and social services did? I find this a sickening comparison.