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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died

961 replies

UnexpectedButExpected · 08/03/2019 19:34

AIBU to feel unbelievably sad that Shamima Bergum’s baby has died.

The poor mite simply didn’t have a chance in the world he was born in to.

Sad
OP posts:
QwertyLou · 09/03/2019 10:40

Oops my phone hadn’t reloaded, I see the convo has moved on Blush.

I didn’t think “giving her baby up to be taken to the UK” was ever an available or viable option (unfortunately).

acciocat · 09/03/2019 10:41

.....

How should ‘we’ have saved the baby???

TightPants · 09/03/2019 10:43

This from GOV.UK is still current re. travelling to Syria.

Forgetting everything but the fact an innocent baby has died
BloggersNet · 09/03/2019 10:47

It's a tragic situation but I'm finding it hard to feel any sympathy for her. For the baby, absolutely yes, but for her no. Even though she's very young. I don't think she should have been stripped of her citizenship though,wasn't she left stateless? Surely that's against international laws? I admit I may be wrong on this.

YouBumder · 09/03/2019 10:47

So we shouldn't bother extraditing criminals now?

You do realise that extradition isn’t some magical process like teleporting that just happens? There has to be an extradition treaty in place for a start and a legal process to be gone through.

Bluestitch · 09/03/2019 10:49

I don't think she should have been stripped of her citizenship either, but I certainly don't think any lives should be risked to retrieve her. The claims that it wouldn't be dangerous for British forces to go to Syria to get her are absurd.

acciocat · 09/03/2019 10:50

Tightpants- indeed. and this was the case for years before Begum went to Syria.

havingabadhairday · 09/03/2019 10:51

"That is beyond horrific BigChocFrenzy, and important for those comparing Begum to groomed rape victims (who harmed nobody) to read."

It's been known in some cases for those who have been groomed to help get other girls.

"Also if her location is so safe that nobody would be jeopardised to retrieve her, why the urgency in bringing her back? Surely she can stay in this 'safe' place for now."

Not saying anyone should necessarily rush in to get her, but obviously safe is relative.

YouBumder · 09/03/2019 10:53

It's been known in some cases for those who have been groomed to help get other girls.

And as far as I know in those cases they have still been criminally responsible for their actions. Being groomed hasn’t been a defence.

KingHenrysCodpiece · 09/03/2019 10:53

The Grun/Independant etc etc also help sow division Oh quite certainly. I merely quoted another poster and didn't elabortate. No need to challenge my 'wokeness'

Our responsibilities are following international law

We didn't follow international law. She doesnt have dual citizenship.

Ah there it is, all thoughts that are not on the same wave length must be based on prejudice, the meme of just shouting "it's racist" has to re worded now

You know you were on another thread I was on. Perhaps go back and read it and then come back and accuse me of subscribing to those sort of views.

And I never said people who think differently must do so based on prejudice. Jumpy much?

What I did say earlier was that this decision should have been based on law. And not on someone's right to apply for another citizenship purely because they have a parent with a separate heritage

Jesus.

acciocat · 09/03/2019 10:54

All terrorists have been radicalised at some point. It doesn’t absolve them of their horrific actions.

nancy75 · 09/03/2019 11:03

Her citizenship & what happened to the baby are 2 completely separate discussions.

Even as a British citizen she could not have been extradited legally & brought back to this country in the 3 weeks it took for her to have the baby & for the baby to then pass away.
To say that her current location is not that dangerous for British troops is utterly ridiculous.

YouBumder · 09/03/2019 11:05

I agree nancy

nancy75 · 09/03/2019 11:09

In an ideal world someone could have gone & rescued the baby but sadly we don’t live in an ideal world. She is in an area of the world with no diplomatic link to the uk & no consular access. As someone said upthread it’s not even certain what country the area she is in comes under. Syria & the surrounding regions have been ripped apart by years of fighting, it’s not the kind of place you can just wander into & bring home a baby.

jacks11 · 09/03/2019 11:11

There is some serious misunderstanding of the way things work in a war zone and/or a country where there is no consular access. And indeed if the role many IS fighter’s wives played in the atrocities committed.

Of course it is sad this baby died, a tragedy for his parents and, indeed, for his wider family. Just like the many innocent lives that have been lost in the region. Every one a tragedy.

However that does not change the fact that this baby died because he was born in a refugee camp, with poor living conditions and little access to medical care. That was not the fault of the UK, but down to his parents’ choices in life. He was a casualty of the situation in that region, like so many others.

The UK does not have “blood on our hands” because there was no practical way to return them even if shamima’s Citizenship had not been stripped the process to return her wouldn’t ha e been quick enough to save him.

As there is no consular access, there is no formal way to organise the easy movement (I.e. via usual modes of transport and especially if that involves travel through another, or multiple, countries). There would need to be documentation for both mother and baby- you cannot simply expect the border laws of other countries to be waved aside because we demand it.

The only alternative is to send in a military or diplomatic mission to retrieve them and fly them directly back to the UK. That puts diplomatic and military personnel at risk, given the region they are entering. Not only that, it then sets a precedent that the UK will go and retrieve citizens wherever they are in the world (even if they have knowingly gone somewhere with no consular access), no matter the reason they are there and no matter the risk posed to those who go into retrieve them. Which would be an absolutely ludicrous thing to do.

There is no way to extradite her. There is a legal process- court ordered and mandated, and only with countries with whom we have an extradition treaty. The UK can’t simply extradite someone because we decide we want to, it simply does not work like that. Also requires a functioning judicial/criminal justice and policing system in the country you are seeking to extradite someone from. Seems unlikely in a refugee camp in the region she is in. The UK cannot just walk into that camp and arrest her to bring her back to the UK either because we have no jurisdiction in that camp.

That is not to say that I think it was right to remove shamima begum’s citizenship- I think we should have allowed her back if she had found a way to do so and investigated her when she arrived, with a view to prosecution if appropriate. She is our problem to manage, not the right thing to do to dump our problem on another country like Bangladesh. Although, i can’t say i’m delighted at the thought of someone with her beliefs back in our midst and no doubt the tax payer will end up supporting her one way or another for the rest of her life. But it does remain our problem to sort.

I also think there is some naïveté about the role of women in IS. Wives of IS fighters were very often involved in terrible acts of cruelty towards others- including innocent women and children. Look at the reports from the Yazedi women and all those others kept as slaves, bought and sold like possessions (and profitable business for IS). These people, including children, were Very frequently brutally beaten, systematically raped, often tortured and not infrequently murdered. We have no way of knowing whether Shamima was party to any of that and are highly unlikely ever to know as there will never be credible evidence either way given where and with whom she was living. And she will always say she was just a housewife, whatever the truth is. But let’s not get too carried away with sympathy- yes, losing her baby was an awful thing to happen to any mother- but the regime she supported is responsible for many atrocities too and is the reason many other mothers have lost their babies. She may even have been involved in some of those atrocities for all we know.

nancy75 · 09/03/2019 11:12

All terrorists have been radicalised at some point. It doesn’t absolve them of their horrific actions

I agree with this, yes she was 15 & yes she was radicalised but how much does that excuse?
We need to look at how this happened to prevent it happening to others but we also need to protect ourselves by admitting that no matter how she got to this point in her life,she is, at the moment a person who agrees with the ideals of a dangerous terrorist organisation

Bluestitch · 09/03/2019 11:13

Excellent post Jacks.

Marcipex · 09/03/2019 11:21

Also the camp is in effect a prison camp. The Syrians are gathering evidence from the surviving locals and especially the Yazidi people.
Many ISIS women are guilty of participating in hideous crimes. Some Yazidi women have said that the British women were the most vicious. They will all stand trial eventually in Syria, I expect. Of course Shamima would like to be magicked away.

KingHenrysCodpiece · 09/03/2019 11:21

I also think there is some naïveté about the role of women in IS. Wives of IS fighters were very often involved in terrible acts of cruelty towards others- including innocent women and children

What does what she may or may not have done have to do with anything? People keep bringing in emotion and bringing up her possible crimes, but that has no bearing on our approach to the situation.

No one is thrilled at the thought of her coming back here.

jacks11 · 09/03/2019 11:24

And I would also add- being groomed or radicalised does not excuse her actions if she were to have been involved in any of the more inhuman practices common to IS (which as I said in a previous post, we are unlikely ever to know the truth about either way).

People of both sexes who have been groomed or radicalised who have gone on to commit crimes- whether that be recruiting, grooming, or seeking to radicalise other young people- have gone on to be prosecuted and held responsible for their actions. Which is right, being groomed or radicalised at a young age is a factor to be taken into account certainly, but never an excuse. And if it becomes an excuse for Shamima (or because we feel sorry for her because she has tragically lost 3 children) then we have to excuse everyone who has been radicalised. But we haven’t, so why her?

BertrandRussell · 09/03/2019 11:29

As I have been saying to my children for the past 20 years about many things “It’s an explanation-that doesn’t mean it’s an excuse”

jacks11 · 09/03/2019 11:31

KingHenrysCodpiece

I didn’t say it did change our approach- as I said, I don’t think stripping her citizenship was the right thing to do because she is our problem to deal with. I don’t think we should have sent anyone in to retrieve her, given the risks of doing so and also precedent it would set for others, but had she made her way to somewhere cosines assistance was available, she should have been allowed to return and investigated appropriately.

However, I don’t think some people grasp the reality that we can’t just extradite her as quick as clicking our fingers or just “bring her back” through normal means.

10IAR · 09/03/2019 11:32

I also think there is some naïveté about the role of women in IS. Wives of IS fighters were very often involved in terrible acts of cruelty towards others- including innocent women and children

I'm not naive about it at all. I just think that so many people are saying these things about a woman, when they said nothing when the men were coming home.

Bluestitch · 09/03/2019 11:37

That may be because people are providing sympathy and excuses that I've never seen given to returning men.

KingHenrysCodpiece · 09/03/2019 11:40

It’s an explanation-that doesn’t mean it’s an excuse

Precisely I'm suprised people find this concept so difficult to grasp.

However, I don’t think some people grasp the reality that we can’t just extradite her as quick as clicking our fingers or just “bring her back” through normal means.

This is true Jacks And I do agree with you. Although no one from government has officially detailed what was possible/not possible in terms of extricating her in the given situation. Well not as far as I know.